I'm not denying Chas Vesholom that the reason it works is because of Hashem. what I'm saying is that it works even if the person using it doesn't believe in Hashem, as long has he believes in something. 

And yes, I also know of the xtian origins of AA, and the text of some of the prayers they use. But really many of the xtian prayers were originally cribbed from ours...

Shteeble wrote on 22 Jun 2017 19:03:



For the record I had the schut many years ago to go to one of Rav Shimshon's couple shabbosim and he was one of my heroes in Torah.
I dont think he was talking about recovered addicts who give their lives and will over to the creator of the universe how they understand Him.
Because those people are just as precious in Hashems Eyes, and just as much His children. 
Hashem has enough love for everyone who reaches out to Him.
And Hashem knows when someone says Yoshke if they are referring to Him or not.
Its not our place to read into their minds.
I have found less conflict with this whole discussion through having a mind focused on the Geula.
When we get to geula, The yidden will be the cohanim and the goyim will be the yidden, for Hashem will not be hidden like he was before, and ALL those that seeked Him will be a part of that. 
So maybe the alcoholics who find God and recovery are sparks of the geula just like the children of the Elef Shviit are sparks of the geula (see ramchal) 
Rav Taub says that addicts are just more spiritual creatures who need God in their lives all the time. That rings true with the above.
One of my theories is that most of the kids born today to Yidden are neshamot elef shvii... it would be one explanation why it says that having babies now in todays dor is bringing the geula.
But the fact is, that all this is just hyperbole, whats real and important is that we have to approach Hashem and give Him our lives to manage... and what Gevura said is exactly right... and what shteeble in reply that its all Siyatta Dishmaya is also right.
What ISNT siyatta dishmaya?
My recovery for SURE is.

Some of the above I still don't understand.

PersonallyPersonally, the 12 steps have been workin' by me (if you call that workin'), for I was workin' the steps. Not really sure about the God part.

Shteeble wrote on 22 Jun 2017 19:03:

They are sober because they worked it. Not sure if God cares one way or the other.

cordnoy wrote on 22 Jun 2017 22:11:

The steps:


Seems That God is intrinsic in the steps.

Does God care if people trust Him?
I think care would be the wrong word.
Humans care..
God Loves.

I remain with mine.

We all have lots in common

Before SA or Gye we all worshiped the same Gd

Markz wrote on 22 Jun 2017 23:45:

I have to be honest i clicked on your link just for that .0001% chance that it would lead me to the caption and it would make it thru my filter (nativusa)

to say that "it works because Hashem wants it to work" is 100% correct
however if i asked you how cars work the same statement would  be correct. now imagine some guy in the 1800s is a tinkerer and he made this massive 20 foot by 20 foot machine thats 30 feet tall full with pipes tubes wires some gears etc. it requires petroleum water banana peels and some black pepper to run the machine. the final product can move by itself 7 mph that would be impressive no? now imagine the world would've said "we found it the horseless carriage" how does it work "Hashem wants it to work" we wont look into it. if that were the case we never would've been where we are today.
that is not exactly  but similar to what the founders of AA did.a bunch of guess work and voila! it works! oh it has spirituality let's call that G-d (after all we have no shaychess to real spirituality).
i'd like to reiterate IT DOES INDEED WORK so if you or anyone truly wants to stop go for it (or any of the 20 tools (for you cordz)) and the gedoilim are for it so there is no chashash avoida zara vchulu. so if you decline to go to SA because of what i'm writing (and you have nothing better ayin ha'ara l'el) then first of all you are only hurting yourself additionally deep down you may not really want to stop 
having said that why should we yidden be happy with what the program sets forth we DO have shaychess to real spirituality we should be able to design a much more effective and efficient version
i am nowhere near proficient enough in  machshava to take achrayis but i am gifted with  a good head and i have some ideas i'm here to get your feedback if i knew everything i'd put out a book (of course with a good editor look at my punctuation?) and maybe make millions
have an awesome day

mikestruggling wrote on 23 Jun 2017 06:07:

Have you read this thread yet?
This
Baruch became a big bokky in SA once he got past all the other stuff
other than calling each step by its Torah version I don't see any crazy way of reinventing the wheel...
emuna, bitachon, bittul, cheshbon hanefesh, selichot, ratzon, hitbodedut, gemilat chasadim, what's the common thread between them all asides from them each being steps.
they all appear repeatedly throughout mussar and chassidus. So we are blessed with references from the Torah for everything 
It just means once we get it it should be a strong healthy truthful honest recovery.

by the way brother you are thinking too much 
it was already mentioned here i am mentioning it again
I recognize it because it's one of my addictions 

hi everyone
i have to be honest i thought i was so much better than SA i stopped making phone calls (yeah i know my signature but i'm obviously above my own advice as well). i acted out which was horrible, i did things that i haven't done since i started at SA. the silver lining is that i'm gonna have an easier time with my humility (for the next couple of hours)
have an awesome day
P.S. before i clicked submit below (to post) i chapped its all about submitting ourselves even if what i say may help someone it is the submitting which holds the key to sobriety (not figuring it all out) 

Thanks for the honest share

Looks like you have a good attitude 
KOMTNMW

Thanx mayan
what's KOMTNMW?
btw i spoke to GS about OINK maybe let him know what time works for you

mikestruggling wrote on 27 Jun 2017 03:47:

Keep on Monstah Truckin no matter what!

GrowStrong wrote on 27 Jun 2017 06:41:

Hey no fair gimme a chance to speak for myself!!!  

Just tell me when you think and I'll try....