mikestruggling wrote on 22 Jun 2017 12:14:

Why do you need the answer to that question?

cordnoy wrote on 22 Jun 2017 12:31:

Cordnoy, your question is going to be a big part of the answer.

Shteeble wrote on 22 Jun 2017 13:51:

That's why I asked it.

it is not necessary to answer my question for recovery. neither are my questions at all a reason not to believe in Hashem chalila aderaba the way i believe it works is proof in torah min hashamayim
but for those who do have questions on their emuna based on these questions should understand that the fact that the higher power "works" can't prove anyone is right about their religion/belief (simply) because it works for everyone
additionally we can't say there is no proof at all for spirituality especially after the doctors account in the "Big Book" so what IS going on (tough no?)
but i conclude for today that there is a reason to know how it works for i believe that through that we'll be able to work it more efficiently and effectively
have a great day

mikestruggling wrote on 22 Jun 2017 16:37:

My apologies, but I haven't a clue as to what you are driving at. You have no issue, but you are worried about others; why?

It works because it's not so much about who/what the higher power is, as much as it is about the fact that it is someone/something other than ourselves. 

cordnoy wrote on 22 Jun 2017 14:09:

Yup, figured as much.

Gevura Shebyesod wrote on 22 Jun 2017 17:29:

What you mean to say is
that it's all 100% siyata dishmaya

and

and

and

uhm

not sure what else you meant to say...   

Gevura Shebyesod wrote on 22 Jun 2017 17:29:

and for the record
I don't know the full answer to the question that was posed

but

I know one hundred percent that yoshkeh isn't able to help any of his followers get sober.

Any sober amongst them are sober only because Hashem wills it to be that way.

which raises another issue.

GYE is fundamentally for the Jewish community,
but it is open to all.
And I don't know if the Guard and whoever else runs the show on this here site
wants any theological discussion running around and knocking woodford off the shelves.

first of all if the Mods are uncomfortable with this conversation by all means let me know and i'll stop i can go to others but its difficult i'd love to talk to r twerski but i dont know how to get in touch with him (maybe one of the mods can pm me his email) other than making an appointment and i'm not near his city and frankly i can't afford an appointment (arguably that's what i really need)
why am i doing this? i feel there is a big toieles for although i do not understand it fully. what i do understand (or i think i do many may disagree and i'd gladly like to hear) is fascinating and enlightening i put out my questions as i did for i wanted to display what the SA literature fails to describe which led me to think that SA was kfira which then warranted the obvious question that if it is kfira how does it work. these thoughts i feel many may have especially as i've seen someone Jewish in SA who became less religious in SA which i feel is mamash missing the boat because all the ingredients for SA is to be found in yiddishkeit but if anyone else has the explanation i sincerely want to hear it i may disagree but if i agree with his explanation i'll end this conversation right there (i'll find another way to brag) if that's what you want

Well obiously I believe it's Hashem, but it works even for those who don't, as long as they can submit their will to something other than their own selfishness.

There may be some kippa wearers that do lip service and don't believe as much in Hashem as you do

Then there are cristians that believe in 1 creator and are great people
Here's one such righteous gentile

gye.vids.io/videos/a09adbb41c11efc328/the-importance-of-accountability-software-for-children

BAD WORD REMOVEDuf is a nice theological discussion.
But the way things are going, we are simply adding more separate gye websites to the list, and soon each guy will have his own and a personal chat room with no interruptions from others which is definitely a good thing, don't you think?

Sorry, too much thinking for me. 

But ive heard that the jews in SA that became less religious were on there way out anyways. I have been SA for a year and I have seen plenty of frum people in them. Maybe they became less religious not sure, probably some less, some not. For me, I have not become less religious. In fact my davening is way better!

I think these questions should be asked to someone close to you and not on the forum. Perhaps someone Frum in SA?

mikestruggling wrote on 22 Jun 2017 19:39:

I believe many of the quotes and prayers in the Big Book and 12 Step Programs are from christian literature.
It's a feeling that I get. I am not knowledgeable in christian literature, of course.

I personally do not feel comfortable saying those prayers verbatim, even when inserting Hashem where they say G-d.

Now as far as Kfira goes, I'm not sure what you're referring to. The 12 Steps are tools. If they work for anyone, it's because Hashem wills it to be so. 

I agree that those joining SA and becoming less religious are missing the boat, but not for the reason that you mention.

Gevura Shebyesod wrote on 22 Jun 2017 20:25:

And it works for those in the "who don't" category because Hashem wills it to work for them.

To quote Rav Shimshon Pincus ZTZ"L:
"Does Hashem love the goyim?
Yes.
but....
Hashem loves the yidden like a person loves his own children.
Hashem loves the goyem like a person loves his car.
and the difference is, if your car breaks down, you don't sit shivah....
if you're normal"