I believe that nobody really can say what made them finally decide to actually change the tide.
I believe that if we are tuned in, Hashem makes something click in our minds, and we take a step in the right direction.
I believe that it's very much like a child who stands for the first time. He was incapable of doing that before that moment, but Hashem made something click, and then he was ready.

Let your mind "live" around the types of behaviors you want to follow, and eventually it will click for you too, b'ezras Hashem.

mggsbms wrote on 16 May 2016 00:33:

OK, here is some chizzuk, and I am serious, no games:

There is a way you can become motivated to do these things, and that is by not acting out your lust. It actually works in reverse for some people (actually for most people it works both ways). Admittedly, this is a scary-sounding path, but I guarantee it will not kill you. My heart tells me, based on your particular writing, that it will help.

I do not know if you are married, I apologize but i forgot. If you are, then drop sex for a few months completely. If you are actually able to speak with your wife about this and she is happy to join you in your efforts even at the cost of dropping sex for a few months, then you are very lucky. Do it. Make a formal agreement (my wife and I did it in writing) that between this date and that date, there will be no sex. Hand-holding plenty, light kissing, sure, and lots of closeness...but nothing sexual. Just calm, close friendship as husband and wife. Lots of real intimacy is what the two of you will get, in return.

And yes, she should go to the mikvah as normal. We had to make some agreements about how to behave the night my wife went to the mikvah during those months in order to relieve the sexual triggers and pressure from the inner 'clock' for both of us (especially me)...but be"H - and with a little help from a close and understanding (and sober) friend - you will be able to do this together right. If she agrees and is OK with being very patient with you and participating.

Shockingly, it will end up being the easiest period of sobriety you have ever had. The exact opposite of what so many GYE guys would suggest. But I know it from experience and the experience of all the other guys I know who have done it. If you are begging for a way out and for a 'bottom', then assume that sex of any kind is toxic to you. Just for a few months. It is worth a try. It will wake up inside you a dependence upon G-d that you never knew you even had.

And one month is not enough for this to work, at all. Most of us will simply revert to holding our breath, as we have many, many times trying to white-knuckle our way through the '90-day wall of honor'. We will simply tell ourselves, "Nah, I can hold out w/o sex this month and maybe next month, because I am sure that Shprintza (your wife) will give me even more sex than ever then anyhow, admiring my self-control." This will not do. It will ruin the entire effect and waste the entire experience (just like 90-day charts often do). Three months is worthwhile, at the least.

That's proven by the fact that when it comes down to actually doing this, three months seems suicidally stupid to us and crazy. And 'just unnecessary'. Four months is even better, as we did, be"H.   

Now, of course dropping sex temporarily is not enough. So, regardless of whether you are, or are not married, during this period (and I think 3 months is usually right for starters) you can agree not masturbate even once nor to ever touch yourself in a sexual way. Simply agree that come hell or high water you will adhere to that. I realized that I was looking down at my privates while urinating...that was part of why the bathroom was so often the 'secret hideaway' I and most of us use for sex with ourselves (masturbation). I stopped looking at my privates, except when genuinely necessary. I did not become fastidious and OCD about it - if it was helpful to look, then I looked - but I just calmly gave it up as a bad habit among many others.

Part of this includes no sexual fantasies. As soon as you become aware that you are running the mental video - just drop them, surrender them, give them up. Pray sincerely for all the men and women in the porn you were remembering, or the person you were fantasizing about and ask Hashem to please, please give them everything they will need in this lifetime that He is giving them to make this life precious and truly good for them. No need to pity them and pray that Hashem should get them to finally stop being so pritzus...for who  is the one worshiping them? Me. So instead of looking down at them at all, I would do better to admit that had I been born in their shoes and had their upbringing, I'd likely be the same as they turned out or perhaps even worse. So we are equals in some respect - screwed up people on G-d's earth.

Now, if you find that this sincere praying does not help you move on without the fantasy, then call an understanding (sober) friend and admit the entire desire. Rav Elimelech zy"a writes just this (and he isn't even talking to addicts - certainly addicts would benefit by it). Don;t squeeze your eyes tight and beg G-d to take your desires away...no fast and 'desperate shukeling' - none of that will help. It will only hurt...badly. As the Shulchan Aruch writes, "It is essential not to believe that the intensity of your prayers is what is making it work instead of the simple charity (Chessed) from G-d that you can never deserve anyway." (I paraphrase) And the ShaLo"H actually writes this is Pshat in Hashem telling Moshe Rabbeinu "Mah titz'ak elai?" - He meant to say to Moshe that he should not daven so hard. For if he does, the bnei Yisroel will likely believe that Kriyas Yam suf happened because of Moshe's will, not because of Hashem's Will!

As addicts, we more than any other people, I think, need to recuse or disqualify ourselves from G-d's decision-making process in a very practical and concrete way. One way of doing this is to quit self-pleasuring. Recovering addicts who choose the 12 steps, agree (as AA suggests in Ch 5) to abandon ourselves to G-d as much as we are able (it will only be a little, surely), and to let go of people and life and let G-d do His Will. We try to do the best we can, and yet leave the outcomes completely to Him and Him alone. This is radically different from how we were till now. I assume you may agree. Trying to do that and failing, is always because of our character defects - and that is why steps 4-7 follow step 3 immediately. If you find this is the issue, then avail yourself of those steps exactly as they are written, and you will find relief, chaver. It really works, if you really work it. As we are, we are only comfortable in the Driver's seat - we determine when we will orgasm, by masturbating ourselves on demand, for example. When the going gets tough, we masturbate...no? And that is just the tip of the iceberg or our controlling. Gevalt, we need G-d, perhaps more than anybody does. 

I assume, mggsbms, that perhaps you do not see it that way, but rather you may see yourself as just masturbating or porning because of the desire coming on of it's own, unrelated to 'life problems'. You may not really buy that sex with yourself is and always has been primarily an escape from life, G-d, yourself, your circumstances....but I believe that by removing (all) sex and all acting out from your life for a few months, the truth will declare itself for you clearly, irrespective of whether you are or are not an addict.

How does that sound to you? Doable? You looked for help and I sincerely believe this will bring you over the bridge you can't cross, to the bottom-line you feel you need to see. I believe that if you do it, you will find the truth about yourself. And it may be quite pleasant. You may discover that you are not an addict at all. Either way, it will probably be good for you.

You are a very good man. Hatzlocha whatever you do!

- Dov

Thanks Dov I'm touched by your heartfelt sincere advice. A lot to digest but it makes sense. I'm not sure I'm ready to jump so will see.

In short, Dov instructed as follows:

1. No sex for three or four months (preferably in writing).
2. No masturbation or looking at privates.
3. No fantasies. If yes, stop, surrender, pray for them, or call a friend and relate entire episode.
4. Do steps 4-7.

Is this correct?

cordnoy wrote on 17 May 2016 00:20:

R' Yehuda made simonim for the makos to make them shorter.
R' Yehuda was rosh hamidabrim (the one chosen to speak up first), 
Why? Because he knew how to summerize. Not an easy task.
Thanks.

cordnoy wrote on 17 May 2016 00:20:

Ever heard the phrase throwing the baby out with the bathwater?  With Love, 

Thanks6

First, I must say that I just read someone (not you, thanks613) say "Dov suggested that guys take a break from sex for 3-4 months, etc..."

That is not true. I never ever wrote that everyone or anyone should try this.

I wrote that I believe that this guy would  benefit from doing that - and yes, it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater for him...but that is because his baby is probably just a doll. And it is only temporary. And there are reasons it it essential for some and yet poisonous to others.

Now, to thanks613, I would never suggest you such a thing unless you shared things w me that would imply to me that we share some experience and issues that would benefit from the same things that helped me. And even then, I'd never do any more than suggest you consider it and discuss it w me.

Doing the abstinence thing I referred to above may be counterproductive for many people. So I would NEVER suggest that anyone try it without knowing a lot more about them, first. And even then, I would only do as I did here: suggest that the fellow consider it. The discussion will then open up from there until a decision is reached. 

This is one of the reasons why posting is so weak a method for sharing real recovery, besides the fake names, and other factors that make it weaker as well.

Now, Maslow wisely wrote, "To the man with only a hammer in his tool box, every problem looks like a nail."

Advice is certainly not a game. Guys need to stop generalizing and assuming that I - or that anyone sharing their experience - sees things as 'one size fits all'. Not to be too rude, but I'd like to say that just because you only have one tool in your tool box and operate that way, does not mean you should assume that I also do. B"H I have many tools in my tool box, and I try to apply them on an individual basis with G-d's help. 

Does this help clarify anything? I wonder sometimes if anybody believes this thing I am saying is true at all. Sometimes it just seems that people with one tool who see things their way just can't believe that anybody actually is different than they are...

Cordnoy was just summarizing what you wrote to that fellow.
He was not saying that you said it's advice for all.
It is somewhat funny that you say you will only advise that to someone you really know, and in that same post, you were not sure if he's married or single.
It doesn't detract from what you said though. Perhaps.

B'hatzlachah to all.

 

thanks613 wrote on 17 May 2016 15:56:

No. An 'oath of celibacy' would be what you are describing.

But what I am describing is not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, at all. For no one here is ever suggesting that anyone eliminate sex from their lives in any permanent way. This is an exercise. Yiddishkeit does many times, for example:

1- we have a concept of deliberate ta'aneism for personal development and an influence to do a better Teshuvah while we will later be eating again;
2- we have a concept of ta'anis dibbur for help in healing the tendency toward leitzanus and lashon hora, etc; and
3- we have niddah (ahem!).

Niddah is exactly Hashem's version of periodic voluntary total sexual abstinence. The thing I referred to is only taking a vacation from it for a little while...and yes, 3-4 months is only a little while. And it obviously must include doing it during times when the wife is tehorah and sex is a possibility - otherwise it is just not really fully voluntary. Saying we could do without it and are free from it is a joke, when you can;t do it anyhow. Anyone can see that.

This is just temporary. A little game-changer to shake things up in a very real way. And it is often exactly what is needed, rather than running from sex with an 'oath of celibacy' as perhaps many catholics do who enter the priesthood and 'nun-hood'. 

Funny how even a short vacation from sex seems like throwing the entire thing out the window, doesn't it?

Now, I know you might say: "Well, Niddah is a far cry from voluntary...the threat of koreis is not exactly 'voluntary'!" 

Yet Hashem's perspective on our keeping hilchos Niddah (and the rest of the Torah) is indeed that it is voluntary.
Just ask any person involved in Kiruv - see them describe keeping kosher as 'a beautiful program of self-control', etc. Self control? U mean that obedience when G-d tells someone that his children will die if he eats this or that is self-control?? No, it is not.

That's why Hashem says over and over in the Torah, "Choose to do these commandments," and we talk of 'bechira' so much. Ultimately, it should be a personal choice. And if we choose to give our free-will up and be coerced by yir'as hashem - then that's a personal choice (if it is really the truth). The RMB"M writes clearly that "the reshus is given by Hashem to everyone to be good or bad". From His perspective, it is clearly voluntary for individual Jews to keep individual mitzvos. Hence, there is actually discipline and personality growth through keeping mitzvos of the Torah. Only because it is voluntary, does a yid grow less dependent upon sex when he keeps niddah properly. But the problem is that most of us do not keep it voluntarily. We partially keep it because of
1- shame before our wives if we should touch them b'isur; we keep it because of
2- shame before everybody else seeing us being a rosho; we keep it
3- to avoid going to hell; we keep it
4- to retain the respect of other members of our frum society and family; and sometimes also
5- to get great reward in the afterlife.
None of them are truly moral motives, but rather self-centered ones. Not evil, just self-centered. And I am suggesting that there just cannot be very much emotional growth through that type of choice.

Just making an observation and trying to be totally honest, here.

That help anyone? Clear?

cordnoy wrote on 17 May 2016 19:08:

Now that was a very good point. But to be fair, I did say "If you are married, then...and if you are not married, then...."
But still a good point, thanks. It got me thinking for a change.

Is there a call today?

mirror wrote:

There was 

mirror wrote on 24 May 2016 17:18:

Monday thru Thursday @1:20 est.

I think he may have been on

markz wrote on 24 May 2016 23:39:

Why do you say that?