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TOPIC: Tryin' 265991 Views

Re: Tryin' 06 Aug 2015 15:39 #261083

  • cordnoy
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Bigmoish wrote:
I don't think that's it.
What he's saying is that although we are all attracted to fantasies, there are varying degrees of realism in each fantasy. Using pornography as an example, some videos are designed to be ridiculously fantastical, while others attempt to mimic "real" situations (much like "reality" TV).
He seems to be suggesting that the further into recovery we venture, the more "realistic" we need our fantasy land to be, because we are being more "real" with ourselves.
I'm not sure I agree.


I like the explanation, but I don't think it's 100% accurate.
You are makin' distinctions between specific fantasies.
Let us say hypothetically speakin' that one would become aroused thru magazines and watchin' pornography, and clubs as well for many years of his life; then when he begins recovery in earnest, he can only become excited in a club or with some sexual connection to a live woman. I wouldn't say that the fantasy is more real. I would say (somethin' to the effect) that he is becomin' more 'real.' In this sense it is not necessarily a positive step, but perhaps thru identification and recognition as to what is goin' on, this realization could prove to be a catalyst for growth in recovery.
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Last Edit: 06 Aug 2015 15:45 by cordnoy.

Re: Tryin' 06 Aug 2015 17:55 #261092

  • peloni almoni
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יישר כחך for the call!
מראי מקומות, פוסקים, שאלות, chicago, just the way i like it.
Have a corny day ... and if you do have other plans, change 'em!!
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None of us has it all together, but together, we have it all.

we always put our sobriety before our ego -
מוטב שאקרא שוטה כל ימי ואל אהיה רשע שעה אחת לפני המקום

לפעולות אדם בדבר שפתיך אני שמרתי אורחות פריץ. תמוך אשורי במעגלותיך בל נמוטו פעמי. תהלים יז
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Last Edit: 06 Aug 2015 17:55 by peloni almoni.

Re: Tryin' 06 Aug 2015 18:06 #261094

  • cordnoy
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Like i said, it's not the usual.....the language in step 9 demanded though a halachic discussion.
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Re: Tryin' 09 Aug 2015 16:34 #261246

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illusionreality.jpg
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Re: Tryin' 09 Aug 2015 17:49 #261253

  • shlomo613
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cordnoy wrote:
illusionreality.jpg

I like this. Will be re-posting it elsewhere and hoping that I don't flag myself as a GYE'nik

Re: Tryin' 09 Aug 2015 17:55 #261255

  • cordnoy
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shlomo613 wrote:
cordnoy wrote:
illusionreality.jpg

I like this. Will be re-posting it elsewhere and hoping that I don't flag myself as a GYE'nik..


Well...you already re-posted it here (twice); I do that as well...the repostin' elsewhere.
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Re: Tryin' 09 Aug 2015 18:05 #261256

  • shlomo613
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I pressed send again as it was sending the first submissision so the network decided to submit it 3 times...

Re: Tryin' 09 Aug 2015 18:22 #261257

  • cordnoy
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shlomo613 wrote:
I pressed send again as it was sending the first submissision so the network decided to submit it 3 times...


no problem
no problem
no problem
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Re: Tryin' 09 Aug 2015 18:42 #261258

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shlomo613 wrote:
A question: Dov is saying that the real addicts will eventually arrive in a 12-step group because their actions will eventually catch up with them and when their sickness is revealed to the public they will come crawling.
But wasn't this whole conversation - like so many other ones- about guiding people so that they shouldn't reach that 'bottom'?
For example, me. I also still don't know if I should be going to live groups (I don't feel so) or the phone conferences. But isn't it wise to attend and avoid the eventuality that i am one of those sickos who will reaching depravity? Isn't this so much of GYE principle: hitting bottom while you're on top?
If this post isn't 100% clear it's because I myself am confused.


There is a difference between live groups and some phone conferences.
One should probably not attend a meetin' if he is not addicted.
Listenin' to some of the steps on a phone conference cannot be detrimental.
Regardin' top and bottom, don't worry so much.

In general, you seem to be a person that has struggled in the past, had considerable amount of sobriety and then fell again. You also seem to have some life indecisions and life isn't perfect and rosy (whose is?). My assumption is that you should continue to post, stay connected, read or listen to the steps and see where that takes you. You do not need to decide the 'addict' question today. Learnin' mussar and extra prayers durin' davenin' also is beneficial.

just imho.....

b'hatzlachah
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Re: Tryin' 09 Aug 2015 19:15 #261261

  • shlomo613
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Thank you Cordnoy.
Stay connected. Listen. Post. Mussar. Pray. Don't worry. I like it... You've said exactly what inside me I wanted to hear and knew I needed to hear. I've never felt that someone hit the bull's eye like now. Thank you again. Shlomo

Re: Tryin' 10 Aug 2015 16:26 #261334

  • cordnoy
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There will be a call today.
Step 9 and 10.
Big Book and White Book.

I'm sure you have the number.
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Re: Tryin' 11 Aug 2015 16:10 #261458

  • cordnoy
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Step 10 call today.
Big book and White book.

1:20 - 1:45
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Re: Tryin' 12 Aug 2015 00:21 #261516

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As we discussed on the call today, we wanted to understand what Dov was sayin', and specifically regardin' three points of his:
1. The 12 steps do not make one sober.
2. The main reasons addicts masturbate is not because of their defects (and hence, the inverse, removin' one's defects will not make one sober).
3. The order for recovery is sobriety and then the steps, not the reverse.

I will first say in my words and then use Dov's.

1. The purpose of the steps is that one can remain sober.
2. Addicts masturbate because it became the only thin' that makes them feel alive; period!
3. [This is slightly tricky; it required clarification thru text messagin'.]The reverse may work, but it is not advisable, for the addict may think he has recovered when he has 'fixed' his middos, when, in truth, that is not the case.

In conclusion: The first step inventory, and the face 2 face relatin' to another live human bein' and admittin' powerlessness is necessary, for otherwise, an addict does not truly recognize the extent of his problem.

Now I will quote Dov:


Dov wrote:
Then they hear about 'the 12 steps' and are sold a bill of goods that the 12 steps are the way to finally get sober. But it's not. It's usually just the way to become able to stay sober. They are lied to and told that the main reason they masturbated themselves was because of their middos/defects, etc - their Irritability, Restlessness, and Discontent...and that if they work on their middos, they will finally be freed of their need to lust! Balderdash.

For, if they are addicts, then they naturally believe sex will save them, period. For the addict, besides lusting being a solution to life's problems, it is the one thing we trust the intuitively to give us the real feeling of being alive, vital and excited about being ourselves for a blessed minute. Us and our body parts are the star of the Great Show, and we just love it! So it's hard to give up...even if it were NOT a sin, at all. We need support and to touch, see, and meet other people like us who have actually given it up and did not die.

Real community is a thing that posting with a fake name to fake people who may be faking who they really are, cannot give a person. Meeting a man in person, actually shaking his hand and saying, "So, you and I both habitually masturbate to porn, use prostitutes, phone sex, or whatever, and here we are. How are you doing today?", is priceless and their is no substitute for it. Looking into the eyes of a fellow recovering masturbater - whether he is a Jew or a goy - and being able to talk plainly about your own faith in G-d's Will for you and His love for you and even just in the fact that you believe in G-d at all...is priceless. And NO SEFER can give you that. A person gets far more from the eyes of a fellow believer - even if he be a goy - than from any sefer.


Dov wrote:
In the same way, those who say "work on the 12 steps, clear away your character defects, work on RID, make life a better place - and then you will not end up needing your drug," are selling snake oil.

Just as the Gemora's eitzos do not work out of context, the character refinement work of the 12 steps WILL NOT WORK WITHOUT A COMPLETE STEP 1. Without a complete first step inventory, in which the addict writes out (by hand on paper, not typed on a meaningless computer) his or her entire sexual acting out history and admits it fully and honestly to safe people who see him in person - he will not come to a proper recognition of his problem.

The 1st step is missing. The context is absent. It will not really work.

The addict who is told that his real problem is his bad middos and RID, is being comforted with sweet shekker. At the price of never requiring the humility and acceptance that are the entire context of the next 11 steps, he is being handed his 'self-respect' back by the very people who are supposed to help him!


Dov wrote:
[Addendum: On the other side of all this, is what many addicts have discovered. That [i]even in sober recovery[/i], we do not always need RID in order to end up acting out! There were times I went for lust and my sponsor asked me if anything was bothering me. I said no. We talked things over.

Nope, nothing was bothering me.

Hmm...what about RID?

So he asked me, "Then why'd do do it?" And I said "I don't know,"...till he helped me remember that I'm an addict. It's normal for a drunk - even a sober one who is not suffering with any pain at all - to drink sometimes. As AA writes, "When we seemed to be succeeding, we drank to dream still greater dreams." Pain is NOT the only reason an addict will end up acting out.

So not only are character defects and RID not the first thing a new addict should be introduced to as 'recovery' - but isn't the last thing, either. It fits nicely right in the middle of the program:

Step 1 is about our sick-ness just cuz we are sick; and coming to terms with the fact that we actually have no choice other than to be abstinent - which truly feels like a tragedy in the full sense of the word for any addict. But we need abstinence because we simply cannot manage living with our drug any more. Our lives are actually unmanageable as we are.

The next steps (2-11) are about the way to actually remain serene enough to keep the gift of Sobriety that G-d gives us right now as a result of our total surrender of the right to drink in step 1.

And the 12th step is, in part, about the fact that if we do not share this gift with others, we won't end up keeping it. After all, we had no right to our first sobriety, did we? It was a gift. So we can't pretend we can hold onto it. It's not ours.

So it seems to me that teaching that "if you work on your middos and get rid of RID you will be able to stay sober", actually denies a role for G-d in the continuing life on an addict. The powerlessness persists. Working on our defects of character is just a tool to opening ourselves up for Hashem. As the Kotzker would say, "Where can G-d be found? Where people let Him in."]
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Re: Tryin' 12 Aug 2015 19:37 #261617

  • newaction
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[quote="cordnoy" post=261516]

Dov wrote:
In the same way, those who say "work on the 12 steps, clear away your character defects, work on RID, make life a better place - and then you will not end up needing your drug," are selling snake oil.

Just as the Gemora's eitzos do not work out of context, the character refinement work of the 12 steps WILL NOT WORK WITHOUT A COMPLETE STEP 1. Without a complete first step inventory, in which the addict writes out (by hand on paper, not typed on a meaningless computer) his or her entire sexual acting out history and admits it fully and honestly to safe people who see him in person - he will not come to a proper recognition of his problem.


Two questions :
1) what first step inventory ? Isn't the inventory on the 4th step and admitting , the 5th ?
2) Selling snake oil ? In the doctors opinion it stated explicitly the cycle which is vicious to the addict , First he feels RID , then he goes on a spree, then he feels remorseful and he regrets acting out , then he makes a resolution of "never again" to act out.Then he feels RID and acts out . In short : RID > Spree > Regret > Resolution ... RID > Spree ... over and over again. In order to brake the cycle he has to learn how to deal with RID .
That anybody saying this, is selling "snake oil" does not make sense .

Re: Tryin' 12 Aug 2015 20:00 #261618

  • gibbor120
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The first step is admitting powerlessness. The first step inventory is writing down all acting out activity and then sharing it with a safe person. Just the facts. I think Dov just means that without admitting that we are beaten, the other steps do not have the proper context to work. The context of the steps is hitting bottom and admitting it.
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