Mesayin wrote on 16 May 2017 21:56:

Esteem as a verb means the value that you have for yourself and the respect you feel or show to yourself. Self esteem means to self value and respect. I would think he would know how much he values and respects himself.

And Cordnoy is right as well- some people have issues because they feel highly about themselves  and sort of feel they are entitled to act out or basically, their arrogance is what gets them in trouble. 

cordnoy wrote on 16 May 2017 14:55:

I understand that a person who begins to act out even on a regular basis may well have either  a high or low self esteem. However, wouldn't most  yeshiva trained guys feel at some point bad about their behavior? Once they realize they truly cannot stop their self-esteem must plummet. 

yiraishamaim wrote on 17 May 2017 02:19:

Feelin' bad does not necessarily equal low self esteem.

yiraishamaim wrote on 17 May 2017 02:19:

If the behaviour is egged on by the ego, how would repeating such behaviour bring is to realize that the high esteem is the cause of the problem?

That is the advantage of a therapist.

Additionally, talkin' to others who know your full story.

cordnoy wrote on 17 May 2017 02:26:

True - just saying if at some point a person says ok I really better stop or slow down my habit and he simply cannot- that frustration is a definite downer.

I have a high self-esteem. (I took a clinical test that is used by many psychologists and psychiatrists. Called the "Beck self-esteem scale.") It may give me some more serenity, but that's it. I don't act or because of self-esteem and I don't get sober through self-esteem. I think many of us are trained to focus so much on self-esteem because we know that the core of many pathologies is self-esteem. But in my experience, focusing on my self-esteem or lack thereof was not very helpful to me.

Workingguy wrote on 17 May 2017 00:24:

You obviously haven't studied about self esteem. Every psychology book I have read and every lecture I have heard says that a high self esteem makes a lower ego and less arrogance and more humility.

Mesayin wrote on 17 May 2017 13:49:

I can only talk from my personal experience.
My self esteem is very high and my ego is larger.

GrowStrong wrote on 17 May 2017 13:55:

Miscommunication here.

The self esteem you are referring might not be the same self esteem that is referred to psychology.

Shlomo24 wrote on 17 May 2017 12:26:

So what I understand you really meant (and correct me if I'm wrong):

A high self esteem "alone" will not help someone overcome addiction. However you admit that a high self esteem may give more serenity, which means a low self esteem cause less serenity.

Have you met someone with little serenity that has overcome addiction?  

Mesayin wrote on 17 May 2017 13:57:

So to clarify- because I haven't even really understood who you've been commenting to and who the miscommunication has been with- there are indeed two different things that I was talking about.

One is self esteem from a psychological perspective, as you pointed out. Indeed, when people have a healthy sense of self/self esteem, it indeed CAN help them refrain from acting out, because it is beneath them. The Torah is very clear about that as well- someone who really believes he is a prince will not hang out in the gutter. 

And indeed, such a person can have more room to be humble, generous, etc. And Shlomo, I personally have found that when I've been able to feel better about myself, I don't act out because I think it doesn't make sense for who I am. 

But Mesayin, the point I was making is that Cordnoy would know whether he holds himself in esteem or not, and by that I meant by the literal definition of the word.

And I want to add one thing- as someone who's been in therapy for five years, and has 25 psychology books in my bathroom alone and is overly psychological (as many of my posts show), don't believe everything that psychology tells you. 

There are people who have very healthy self esteem and are still self centered, selfish, etc. Think about it this way- the Torah is very against arrogance. But we know that according to psychology, arrogant people have low self esteem and it's coming because they have a hole to fill. So how come we say that HaShem says He can't reside in the same world as such a person?

And some answer like you might- that it's because he has such a low image of himself that HaShem won't hang with him. 

But the real answer according to most is that sometimes, people have a high level of self esteem that would meet the psychological criteria and yet are selfish.

There are numerous sources that indicate this- that a person can misunderstand his role in the world Davis because he has healthy self esteem- and that he has to channel his self esteem to make him interested in others. 

Workingguy wrote on 17 May 2017 14:51:

I hear and I respect your knowledge about this.

However, Rabbi Dr. A.J. Twerski has written a ton of books about self esteem and seems to be convinced that a healthy self esteem creates selflessness and not selfishness (I dislike fish by the way). The aforementioned Dr. Dovid Lieberman also preaches that.

I am compelled to think that way too unless I get facts and evidence otherwise. Would you have that evidence? Do you know of any other psychologists that say otherwise?

Mesayin wrote on 17 May 2017 14:01:

Yes. Me. I didn't always have a high self-esteem.

Mesayin wrote on 17 May 2017 18:19:

I know that Rabbi Twerski and Dr Lieberman say that. The distinction I'm making is as follows- perhaps without it you will have a hard time being selfless, but just because a person has self esteem doesn't mean they will be selfless. By their explanation, every rasha and evil person in the world were just lacking self esteem.

Do I have evidence to the contrary? Well, based on the Torahs I've learned from R Moshe Shapiro and R Shimon Shkop, I believe there is ample evidence that at least they believed that a person can have self esteem and still be a bad person.

Think about it in this simple way. Let's assume a person has a corrupt value system- let's say an anti-Torah, self centered ethic that their society subscribes to. Wouldn't they follow it if they subscribed to it EVEN if they had low self esteem? You'll become
more selfless and generous if that's part of your value system; if not, you most certainly won't.

Being in Kiruv I see this all the time. People with tremendously healthy psyches who have no idea of the concept of selflessness and generosity because that's not their world, and people who are from our world who have terrible self esteem but are so giving because that's their chinuch.

To me, this is an elementary observation of the world, and why self esteem isn't the answer to the world's ills- because without values and a framework, self esteem won't get you anywhere.