In afterthought, I don't want to leave people confused, and all the more so i don't want this to become the "torah and chizuk approach". So i want to add the following disclaimer:
             There are MANY 'issues' between SA/GYE and Yiddishkeit that need to be explained. Somewhere on an old computer of mine I made a collaboration to address and 'resolve' many of these issues. I wasted the time to do so, after i witnessed countless sorry-souls who CAME TO SA desperately seeking help,and left the program shortly afterwards in a vain attempt to seek tshuva.
         Much like any married couple, Torah and program will have their quarrels and differences. But you don't divorce, and you certainly don't go CHEAT on each other with another women חילה וחס!!  Oy השם ירחם!! 
          One specific issue that I have found, prevented members from working step 2-3, in their [flawed] perception of yiddishkeit GOD hates them. Yup, so much for a "loving god", people like this spend years eating their hearts out, from יראת שמיםand יראת חטע.  They need to learn how also in yiddishkeit (and also in torah 4uGrowStrong),  one can come to terms with his precious actions.             i had a sponsee who didn't believe in the whole אונס-sickness-disease approach he heard in SA. But he couldn't stop claiming it was correct, why? Because if it wasn't true, then he "needs to commit suicide" in his own words. He did alot of bad things, alot of times.             The dilemma he was troubled with is, "am i a good person, and what does Hashem think of me".  And until i helped me "accept" himself in the light of his own yiddishkeit, his חרטה and religios-guilt left him no choice but to 'drug' away his remorse with even more דברים אסורים. 

In short, stop thinking that the Aibishter isn't  your "loving God", stop looking at yourself as "a bad jew", and get re-educated from a Torah perspective.  Be on good terms with your past, and don't fear possible slips-falls in the future.  

Sorry but the more you type the more confused i get.

I have a very hard time reading long posts, although I read many of yours

I may be missing some vital info, so forgive me if I'm off the mark

You sound like you're in lots of pain
LOTS

From your childhood, to the divorce and all the fallout...

On a separate note; gye has a list of recommended therapists. I have asked them to remove 1 as I know he's not someone to go to. He's a decent guy, but therapizing is out of his league

What, a guy goes to school and learns some psychology and the world is suddenly cured?

Often times these guys break the world. Diplomas don't make the Shrink. 

I have not met you in real life brother, and you may be a professional therapist, and a good one too. But what makes you think you're worth less than any of us that go for therapy - why not go yourself to one?

Day 8:  Last shabbos i met an old friend from the program. He left the groups a long time ago, and by mere coincidence he happens to not be clean, sheer coincidence (no sarcasm intended). We spent a good hour catching up, and his message to me was 'heaven sent'. For the sake of accuracy, he was talking about himself and what he was told, but the program has already taught  me long ago not to expect a בת קול to direct me, and i will have to suffice with reasonable 'hints'. When he explained how his money problems where rooted in this עברה, I started blushing at the thought of my own issues, and how truly being clean would probably make a significant difference in my bank account.
             Lust, for me, is a human drive. A hunger so powerful, that man is willing to invest all his waking hours to feeding a family and caring for his wife. Where'as if he didn't have such a strong hunger, he may have opted to stay single, and enjoy a hefty salary all to himself. Even if i where to plug-in the halachik aspect to my life, since i have already fulfilled my mitzva of bringing boys+girls, i can technicly opt to stay single my whole life, and have alot more time to learn torah every day.  And i mean A LOT MORE TIME! But i have a se-- drive, and i can't seemingly imagine "holding my breath" forever. Much like my stomach, also this hunger can't be left ignored.    So what am i supposed to do with it!! (i am divorced)
             The problem is for me the solution. 

               The solution i learn and applied to my life, through the 12 step program, is to surrender. When i hit rock-bottom once upon a [forgotten] time, it was "easy" to make that jump. My life as a whole, and even majority of the facets of my life, where unbearable. To give up my agenda, and adopt what hashem wants from me, wasn't to hard. The questions that plagued me where, why to give-up the facets that [still] "work for me"?   Why give-up forever, eventually my life will be normal, and even my rock-bottom will brighten up?   Over time, when כח השכחה that God endowed all mankind with, led me froget the pain and despair of that period, the questions where even stronger "why am i living according to this program, how did i ever agree to this?"
                I know, i know, go to other peoples first step to be constantly reminded of the general concept of rock-bottom...  I know, etc'...           I once spoke to DuvidChaim about this, and learnt from him something that changed my life. The program provides me a better quality of life. אמונה ובטחון are the BEST solution to all of life's problems-challenges-issues-obstacles. At that point my first step evolved from a state of "running from pain-suffering" to "running towards serenity, happiness, and a new purpose".                  I don't work the program to stay clean, however it is by working the program that I stayed clean (and if i would have only kept in touch with ppl from the program, i would not have ever fell). I work the program because it works, it makes my life pleasant regardless of the traumatic (the average consensus would call it that) events that happen to me. Step 1 we never stop doing, because it is the justification for the next 11 after it. However for me, step 1 is knowing that there is more than one way to 'respond' or 'retaliate' to the situation. And from years of my own experience, steps 2-3-10 prove to be a more pleasant, wholesome, and rewarding response-solution. 
                         
                      I mentioned it in passing, but once my ideas started flowing, i would like to elaborate on it more. Steps 2-3, for me. I am an ambitious person, I view "the impossible" as my "to do list". I had a lot of ambitions when i came to the program, and they caused me no-end of disappointments. I didn't fear to try, but it wasn't pleasant to fail, time and time again. Maybe you can say that "I was a failure, with great ambitions".                 Over time i came to understand where my not proportional drive to succeed stemmed from. I started understanding what i was missing deep inside, and what i stood to gain from these achievements. But i didn't yet give them up...      When the 2nd step required me to start collaborating a list of these "dreams", the very task scared me, because deep down inside i knew that this was a "hit-list" of negative character traits, and i was going to give-up all of them.       My step 3 had countless attempts, i tried it with all different approached. but the one that opened the door for me, into a wonderful new existence was "gratitude".  I started thanking Hashem for the good. Then I wanted to show-off to my sponsor [did i mention ambitious] and started writing an additional list of thank-yous to my wife [did i mention i am divorced...]. From there i started digging back in time and writing a gratitude list to my parents [with which whom i had a horrible relationship]. At some point i got ambitious [no kidding] and started compiling  list of all the BAD things in life, and "chiseling away" at them with gratitude.  Anything bad, became a mere segment of life that i had not yet applied the program to. I viewed my problems, as a "program to do list" and wasn't troubled by them, because i was absolutely SURE that they will dissipate as soon as i "work the program" on them.

             I can't explain it enough.  The program is the solution to everything.   And no it's not my sponsor, or the groups, although without them I would NEVER have discovered this.          It's simply אמונה ובטחון, and LIVING by it. And demanding myself to act in a way becoming of those ideals. No i will not allow myself to be angry at the people who have vowed to harm me as much as they can, because I know and believe that other than their "choice" to harm me, the harm is heaven-sent and would come by other means if not by them.  I cannot harbor hatred, and i do not allow myself to act on the gut-feeling to take revenge.            [if only i could elaborate who did what to me, you would understand why i am shocked by my own response! ]
          

At least according to the Shulchan Aruch, Even Haezer 1:8, you can't choose to stay single. There it explicitly states that even if you've fulfilled your obligation in regard to kids, you are not allowed to stay single. 

At work today, a co-worker shared with me some beautiful stories of בטחון that he read somewhere. The kind of true stories, that are too good to be true. And frankly, I can relate to them, I have been in that same place, and I acted the same way. But there was one thing that I couldn’t accept hearing….

                #: Chizuk, I can’t accept someone giving it to another person who is suffering. Because c’mon, let’s be honest here. You give him today a good half hour of “inspiration” and he walks away “elevated” and feels a temporary respite from his issues. Tomorrow morning he will not remember anything you said, and for sure the “ethereal elevated sensation” will no longer be there.  So if you plan to be there 2-3 times a day to give these great lectures (free of charge), than that is great. But we all know, that no-one is available 24/7/365.25 to constantly give chizuk- even for pay!  So if you really care about the miserable guy, chizuk is just a quick (and short) ‘fix’…

                #: Change his reality!  Maybe I am too pessimistic, but maybe that is also my greatest strength. To the people you care about, give solutions that truly work on a long term basis. For example, by telling him [true] stories how people where ill-hospitalized-operated-and then they discovered soothing even worse and it saved his life, no they all live happily ever after the end!  Now it was a cute story, maybe even heartwarming, but even the guy in the story was worried sick until they came to the “happy ending”, the guy in the story suffered all along and the fact that the “bad part” of the story only took 45 seconds to tell, doesn’t do justice to the 3.5 years that he suffered in real life!!!!                Why don’t you try a SOLUTION, that has even worked for millions around the world. Step 2-3.

                The problem has 3 parts, my aspiration, how I planned to do it, and God’s reality. The first 2 are subjective, the 3rd is a fact (work WITH it and not AGAINST it). Ask yourself….. [I asked myself]   what do I want?      How does this ambition work for me, am I acting out all day in frustration?    How did I want to achieve that ambition?       Is it working for me? Ha ha ha obviously not!   

                 At this point I either adopted a “spiritual” plan of action to get to that same thing. (let go and let God).    or I surrendered my ambitions, and adopted what Hashem wanted from me. (how to know what he wants from me is another story…)

Surrender      As an international fellowship, the 12 step literature had to go through an interesting process of translation. Translating the intention+words+incinuations+depth of the literature proved to be an almost impossible task (OA made great protocol for translating, sadly AA/SA didn’t yet adopt them). So what happened in hebrew, was that AA did a only half-decent job in translating the big book, and SA gradually worked on improving it’s rough-drafts of translations. Getting back to the point (sorry for anyone ADD who is reading this) when SA came to translate the “concept” surrender they had to break their heads to explain it. קבלה-כניע, there is no word in modern Hebrew or לשון הקודש for that exact thing (maybe because a jewish army never surrenders…. He he he).              A true definition of this concept, is what stands behind steps 2-3. We realized that our goals WILL NOT HAPPEN, and instead of waiting it our until there is no man left standing, we realize that ONLY BY SURRENDERING our lives, dreams, family, future to the hands of our enemies… only that may let us live.

In the program, they only ask you to surrender to the reoligion we where raised on (Big Book specificly states that, and not to look for new religions, chapter 6 or 7    [I’m gonna loose another 5 karma points on this]).       Take a few minutes to contemplate what POW (prisoner of war) means, contemplate on the fact that being a POW is the outcome of surrender.           But Hashem does only GOOD to us, especially if we drop any other efforts and ONLY turn to him!!!

Good Shabbos.    And keep reading, stop complaining, and just work the steps….

Didn't see you in the meeting today

I don't know why people minus your karma I pushed it back up 

But you were also asking for Karma, and my impression is that it's not given for lectures or Ka(r)makazi posts like mr Anonymous_14.2

Its given based on being part of a community and it takes work. And according to Dov the virtual community is just a game so why should you care what your anonymous brownie points are in anycase

fyi on your profile page you can hide your  points if you like

Deleted.

Recovery: הכל טוב ויפה  (“that’s great”) 

What about sobriety? A concept I did not need to think about or deal with for a LOOOOOOONG time. I took it for granted after only a few months on being clean, it was easy, and I has less of a yetzer hara than a normal person (much less).                To be honest, I was married and had an “outlet”. Even on the few occasions that my wife pushed off her mikva to spite me, it hurt my ego, and nothing more than that. For me, the married man’s “use” of lust (the term ‘outlet’ carries a negative stigma) requires much less stepwork. It only required me to synchronize my lust with my wife’s hormones, and sometimes to be a litttle flexible and patient about it.

The real challenge is to be “Sober and Single”, ouch!      It’s a “no tolerance” policy, and frankly that defies human nature. I take my hat off to any single guy (or girl) who is clean.       How am I supposed to “hold my breath “ forever?!?!             What if I never remarry? I don’t believe that I am capable of keeping my “tail” out of commission, until further notice?!?!

Oh, I forget to mention, that I fell yesterday (and today).

In addition to writing about my god-given recovery, I will start working the steps on this thread, to achieve sobriety.

Step 1:   Do I honstly enjoy shpritzing to shmutz?  [aka  masturbating to internet pornography]

               Yes, but to be honest I need to break it down. You see I am self employed, that means that I can miss a days work and wages, and no-one will say anything to me about it. I only notice it in the bank at the end of the month, and being that my yetzer hara has no short term “vision”, that is a factor I can’t take into account in the short term desicios to yes/no look at porn.  In short, it’s fun in the short term, and harmful to me in the long term.        

                In addition, it depends how you define “enjoy”.  Because shmutz is great, a real pleasure,  but on the other hand it’s a totally fleeting and empty pleasure. It is not for naught that I regret my actions the very second after I “shpritz”. I always tell myself that it wasn’t worth it,  or that next time I should first take-off the filter and ‘feast’ my eyes כמו שצריך. I am selling myself short, and paying for it full price in ייסורים ועברות ואיסורים.   In short, I find it an empty and short-lived pleasure.  

                To philosophize a little about it, I must say that the whole concept of lust is perceived as pleasure with bad consequences. When in truth, the very act בשעת מעשה if filled with dis-pleasure, disgust, guilt, hunger, regret, and a simply suffering.  In my [sober-recovred] past I have sat with my sponsees and rehashed with them their most ‘enjoyabe’ falls (עריות חמורות ואין כאן המקום לפורטם) and slowly brought to their waking conscious that “it wasn’t enjoyable” even when they were doing it!        In my scenario, acting out causes me to……  [deleted- in case [b]ALSO[/b] this post will be used against me in divorce proceedings].    Frankly it is me that is choosing to ignore all those things, and only take notice of the fleeting pleasure, and thereby fancy ‘enjoying’ another slip or fall. It’s a lie, I truthfully suffer from acting out.

Conclusion: I need to consciously focus on the negative aspects of acting out.       How? GYE chats

……to be continued

I want to elaborate alittle on my last post.

Every new person on this site, expects to find tips to “fight the urge” or “chizuk torah tshuva”. And what they find, is “surrender” and “disease”.  I am referring to the 12 step approach, and how it “contrasts” our old perception of these issues. We learn “new concepts” “new values” and frankly our slang and manner of speech sound alien, to anyone from the outside world.                   Specifically we came to the program (or GYE) with a perception that lust=pleasure. The program teaches us a new set of values, where sobriety=life. However, even veteran SA members have never “resoved” the conflict between our “normal” values and perceptions that we came to here with, with our new perceptions and ethical values that are treasured in 12 step groups.

                The resulting outlook has 2 side effects. Firstly, as soon as a member leaves the never-ending support of the groups and program, he forgets his “new perceptions and beleifs” (sobriety=life) and reverts to his old and natural approach to lust (lust=pleasure=fun=hollywood=entertainment).  Secondly, even when present in the program, we wage an inner battle of pleasure VS program!

                Instead of this, I have found that by reconciling what I learn in the program, with what I thought before I came, kept me “protected” without the need to go to 3 groups a week and 4 daily phone calls. The program identifies lust as a physical desire that has lost all proportion, and gone out of control. So I started asking myself if these ideas are “acceptable” by normal standards, how do they fit within my “old self”. The result, I honestly SEE how lust isn’t good for me to overdo. I identify it’s destructive potential, by standards that are “universally acceptable”.       I don’t get confused or phased by “12 step criticism”.      I don’t get confused by people lusting around me and not suffering (on a physical level).

To be continued…..

PS,   the thread isn't locked, if you have what to say than gladly do so.

Hi,

nice to see you posting your feelings and perception. I do have a question or two to ask, if you agree to elaborate. It is not clear when your talking about sa, 12 steps, rcovery sobriety, program, GYE, etc.. Its sounds to me like a big chulent. So I wwoild like to ask you to clarify:

1.  What is your step 1 in short?
2. Do you believe or feel the Sex is indeed optional for today?

This would help others to understand what methods yo are using to become sober, clean, and recover.

Thanks 

That you for the question!

1.  What is your step 1 in short?

                Sobriety and recovery are simply a better option.                    (positive sobriety, as opposed to suffering enough and hitting a mystical rock bottom. mystical because we all know that the true bottom of the pit is when we stop DIGGING).  My daily chizuk to be clean, in the pleasure and benefits it gives me (i don't need to hear newcomers griping about their sorrows on falling)
              
          Identifying the pain-suffering-dammage in every oppertunity to act-out. making that connection, and labeling acting-out as "bad". NOT BECAUSE THEY TOLD ME SO, or brainwashed me, but because I objectively believe in it. It's unarguably true.

            There are more parts that i did in the past, over time i will remeber them...

2. Do you believe or feel that Sex is indeed optional for today?     NO.    Maybe this is a shortcoming of mine, maybe I have alot to learn here???   But i have an appetite for food and an appetite for lust, and being single and sober is akin to living my whole life with pangs of hunger.    Yes the drive will subside, the less i feed it, but it will not STOP until a very old age (if ever).

2b/ Do you believe or feel that you can pass the day without sex?   yes,     apparently that is what you meant to ask.          

3 It is not clear when your talking about sa, 12 steps, rcovery sobriety, program, GYE, etc.. Its sounds to me like a big chulent.???            I don't differentiate between truth and truth. Be it 12 steps of AA, CODA, OA, SA or a milder idea on GYE, or even the "torah approach", NLP, Psychology....   i don't see any reason to draw a partition between the truths found in them (between the contradictions-questions-problems... that is another issue).    Yes, by me they are all mixed together in one big pot.

I do not intend to minimize your pain of separation etc etc etc

Old Timer wrote:
 

From your recent posts it's apparent that it has nothing to do with single or not

Well know of many single members on this forum that have substantial length of sobriety. I also know many members in Sa that i know them personally, that are single or seperated or divorced, or even married but went on to abstinence from sex for more than a year and they are sober. i Am actually thinking of a friend in the program that is married and has a good relationship with his wife. But for some reason they are on total abstinence for 7 years, and he is sober for over 4 years straight. I also have a friend in program that is on abstinence for over a year and he is sober for over 2.5 years.

As a matter of a fact, the way i became sober was from this. When i came to this site, and i saw on the wall of Honnor, how many single guys are clean for 100 or 200 or even more days, it shook me up. I realized that if these single guys can stop their acting out, then i can for sure.

so it may take some time, but for me, I know that SEX is indeed optional.

that doesn't mean that i dont want or like or desire or need sex. But it is still optional. I can stay sober today regardless if I have sex in my life.