|
Welcome,
Guest
|
TOPIC: Religious pain 3231 Views
Re: Religious pain 01 Jul 2025 04:57 #438208
|
trueme wrote on 01 Jul 2025 01:57:
First of all I respect all here and I appreciate the topic. I get that anyone suffering trauma and doesn't want to forgive shouldn't be judged. No compelling obligation? Nu nu. I think there is a compelling reason and argument. What is tefillas zakah about? Dont we ask straight out that Hashem should put it into the hearts of those we have wronged to forgive us - is that talking only if you asked them forgivness (Hold on guys, pause the davening I gotta go ask, aww shucks he lives chutz l'tchum...) ? And that we forgive everyone as well - only if they asked us forgivness!? Forget that. Dont we say (at least some of us anyway, I wish I was one of them:wink:), the tefillah of ribono shel olam I am mochel each night to forgive anyone and everyone...who here has a nightly line of the people waiting to ask forgivness???? A holy wise jew once told me that when someone wrongs someone that is "himmel zachen", even though we are perplexed by bechira, no one can harm you, it's all Hashem's plan. If the fellow is a bona fide rasha, that is a different story, 'באבד רשעים רנה, אהבי ד' שנעו רע וכו...but most Jews are not like that even if they do very wrong things. (eh...like me, why else am I here...) Im not saying it's easy or hard or what not. The parsha of Yosef is a difficult parsha to say the least and it's very difficult to say that the same Yosef who said that the shevatim didnt do this, Hashem did this, and pacified the shevatim(!) Also at the same time never forgave them. I was always taught, and I believe there are strong sources for this, I apologize I don't have them offhand, that because Yosef didn't say with words I AM MOCHEL YOU - that is why we still suffer from that חטא. (Hence why many people are particular to get an explicit, verbal, forgivness) But It could be it was overlooked then that such a detail was imperitive. I dont believe there is any proof from Yosef to our discussion in reagrds to whether one should find it in his heart to forgive. Regarding a Talmid Chochom, the pshat (IMHO) seems to be (פשוט) like the first pshat mentioned above - davka a ת"ח and davka because of k'vod hatorah. That's for sure the pushut pshat, remember we are talking about a massive shift l'massah (at least in perspective) you need a solid ראיה להפך. With all due respect and admiration (there really are special people here and also people that suffered alot) there definetely is a compelling argument, and although that might have not been the focus of the discussion, I think it should be brought to the table. Matter of fact I think it's the objective truth, dare I say obvious, and it's just hard. It's more based on how far from a person's personal pain and trauma he has come and risen above. How far he is connected that it's all Hashem and everyone is puppets! (No offense of course, we all are puppets in that sense  )Love you all. P.S. Yes, I suffered trauma (as I think I mentioned) from the system, yes I was hurt by others in what I thought was in a thoughtless and coming out to be in a cruel manner, and yes I stand by what I said 1000%! Sorry, Im just a small fry, with my own trauma, but I think it is helpful to recognize the truth...when we will be holding there is different but at least we have the proper goal posts so we can say that we are trying. Most importantly. I believe the health and recovery that one attains when he reaches a state of acceptance in Hashem's ways and total loving reliance on him, including forgiving those that wronged him...I think that that stage is bliss. And we should at least aspire to that bliss. That’s precisely my point. This widespread "turn the other cheek" idea — where forgiveness is preached as the automatic and ideal response — is, in my view, mistaken. Not only that, but the phrase “I’m moichel you,” which is tossed around so casually today, likely accomplishes very little, halachically or emotionally. Here’s the language of the Mechaber in Choshen Mishpat 422: החובל בחבירו אע"פ שנתן לו ה' דברים אינו מתכפר לו עד שיבקש ממנו וימחול לו ואסור לנחבל להיות אכזרי מלמחול כי אין זה דרך זרע ישראל אלא כיון שבקש ממנו החובל ונתחנן לו פעם ראשונה ושניה וידוע שהוא שב מחטאו וניחם מרעתו ימחול לו וכל הממהר למחול הרי זה משובח ורוח חכמים נוחה הימנו To me, it’s clear: the derech Yisrael is not to be mochel automatically before real teshuvah has occurred. Of course, one may choose to forgive anyway, and that can be a high level. But it’s not demanded or expected halachically. And it comes after a lot of inner work. The nightly tefillah you mention, from Megillah 28a, "כל דצער לי מחילנא ליה", is a midas chassidus. We don’t know if mar zutra was referring to those who apologized or not. Even if he meant all offenders, it likely referred to daily interpersonal friction, not serious and repeated abuse or trauma. As for asking mechilla erev YK, it likely fits more in the spirit of Yom Kippur, a day of achdus and cleansing. See levush... With regards to tefilla zaka the hope is that with the spirit of the day one will be able to utter those words and mean it. But it's not a chiyuv and again the mashmoas is on aveiros that are not known (besides for the chutz) The emphasis in halacha is on asking for forgiveness so that others may forgive. The halachic obligation is still for the offender to seek mechilah, not for the victim to offer it unconditionally. Ultimately, this discussion is less about whether forgiveness is good, of course, ideally, we want to reach a place of peace. It’s about whether there's an obligation to get there prematurely, without an attempt for reconciliation, and whether pushing that can cause more harm than healing. Specifically the thought process some bochurim come away with; that Hashem wont forgive them unless they forgive is very harmful and a real chillul Hashem. Each person has their own journey. I fully agree with you that there is tremendous healing and bliss in true acceptance and emunah, but that can’t be rushed or forced on someone still in the thick of their pain. And we have to be real with ourselves and realize if we are still angry that we are allowed to be human. |
|
Nothing good grows in the dark.
|
