captain wrote on 25 Jul 2025 12:41:

For some reason, my entire PM option is gone. Would love to hear more - youknowho300@proton.me

I'm still going back and forth on this, whether it should be put up publicly. If someone wants to convince me to post it publicly, do so here. (You might want to read the post first, so PM me for it.)

captain wrote on 25 Jul 2025 13:55:

Public. On a public forum, some will like what you write and some won't. 

youknowwho wrote on 25 Jul 2025 14:00:

True! But I'm more concerned about:
1) having a bad impact on a reader (making him angry at the system, or at rabbanim, etc. I've found this to be very damaging overall.)
2) It perhaps being understood in ways that don't contain the proper respect for incredibly great people.

Of course, some people do need to hear this. The question just is what the impact of making it public will be, and if there is anything negative, is it justified by the benefits to those who will gain from it being public.

Perhaps a compromise is to give marei mekomos?

captain wrote on 25 Jul 2025 13:55:

This is a public forum, we have the right to discuss whatever we want, albeit in a respectful manner. Truth be told when someone clearly wants his thread to be geared toward a certain direction, makes sense that if you want to veer from that direction, start your own thread. Up for debate. 

Either way, I dont know why this point is being considered in such a (almost fearful) manner. Let's start with this. Would a Sefardic businessman in Aleppo attempt to understand the code of the way husyatiner chassidim understand the proper way to daven ashrei? Or in more general terms, would a student firmly entrenched in the world of Rav Shamshon Raphael Hirsch delve into the Hashkafa of Rav Baruch Ber? If they would it would probably classify as a hobby, perhaps an interesting intellectual pastime. 
Practically? 
They are very different.
The world of Europe was very very different then our world. In so many ways. From nearly every angle. 
Each generation his its unique charachter and its own nisyonos. The concept of mesorah can help with halacha and even minhag but when it come to chinuch and general self growth it obviously needs to be translated both to fit the needs of the generation and even more specifically - the individual.
Without delving, what difference does it make what they did in europe?
What we do know is that if someone attempted to recreate Navardok or Kelm nowadays should probably open up a mental institution because at least over there its regulated and official. (Yes, the two above are extreme examples, but the general point is the same)
We might stem from Litvish Yeshivos, Chassidic courts, or other schools of hashkafa and their are certain principles that we glean from them and are unchanging. But practically? We need to do what works and brings us closer to Hashem, we are not busy needling on earlier generations that frankly, probably is mostly speculation (if even that) without any real clue what we are talking about. 
I am NOT criticizing captain, (and I did NOT request his write up), or anyone else in this post. I am just pointing out what I think is the proper attitude.
The only think I think could be gained is someone, and I truly feel bad for this type of person, who has been so traumatized that he must replicate and personify the old european system (which he has no clue about) that he must learn what he can just for the sake of practical differentiation.)
Please excuse me if my tone was sharp, I only meant it to be blunt, and nothing personal to anyone.

I was referring to what was done by great people in europe that 1) still impacts many yeshivos today, and 2) could be (inaccurately but very likely to happen) viewed as disrespectful to them

Personally, I think anything that you see clearly the possibility of people walking away with disrespect for gedolei Yisroel, don't share

I can't initiate PMs, but if you send me one I can send it to you

captain wrote on 25 Jul 2025 17:48:

Not worth the danger in an open forum.  

captain wrote on 25 Jul 2025 17:48:

Re 1: How do you know all the factors and motivations regarding things that happened approxiamately 100 years ago?
Re 2: See 1 - whatever "fallout" there is is called hashgacha pratis and I can add two questions for every one that you have

Please dont take any of this as disrespectful toward you. I'm just sharing an argument.

youknowwho wrote on 25 Jul 2025 13:55:

Same. haragra14@gmail.com. Unless the fear is I will be disparaging towards them:)

I don’t like negativity about any group 
Hasidic 
Yeshivish
Nanach
Habad
Etc Etc

Please

Can we agree that bad people can be found  in all those groups, and generally worse people outside the orthodox world.

Unless someone wants to keep their head in the sand for the sake of shemirat einayim…

So my 2cents?
If someone has issue with certain elements of any of the mentioned beautiful groups, please keep them to yourself. 
There is zero benefit in raising it here. 

On the other hand, if someone suffered in a religious setting which seems to be the case from the title of this thread, there is benefit in sharing that and working on healing which can definitely be painful…

youknowwho wrote on 25 Jul 2025 13:55:

Ditto.
yitzy148@gmail.com

There are a few basic differences between European yeshivos and now. Ill just say three obvious ones. The simplest one is that if you went to Yeshiva you felt special because you were the only one doing it. Even if you had detractors, you were able to build your identity around your learning and feel even better about your mesiras nefesh. Nowadays, everyone goes to Yeshiva. We cant identify as a unique person because we go to yeshiva, all we can do is compare ourselves to others and if I are the king of the hill, maybe, I can make that part of my identity. The second is in the same vein, only the most motivated people went to Yeshiva, Yeshiva was by nature for metzuyanim. The curriculum certainly was geared towards that. Bezmaneinu, we have the fortune of nearly everyone receiving a Torah education in a yeshiva, and most of them are at fairly high levels. Whats good for the yachid isn't good for everyone. Im not saying we have to sacrifice the budding gadol, assuming you can identify him. But you certainly cant push everyone to be at his level. That sacrifices the 999 for the (maybe) one.
Number three is the abundance of emotional problems. In my class, I knew of three out of twenty and there certainly was more. Thats over ten percent. The number is certainly higher... As far as we know these problems were not prevalent in Europe. (There is a certain lackadaisical attitude some have (hopefully not most) when they think, well he is just crazy, its not my problem. I don't think that's hashkafas hatorah, adam muad leolam, we have no right to be mazik these students. If a yasom was in our class wouldn't we think a hundred times before saying a kibud av class? A child from a divorced home would definitely give us pause to think about a shalom bayis vort. So why should someone suffering from depression, anxiety or severe lack of self image be different? The only reason I can think of is either because the mechanech doesn't believe, or he totally has no intimate understanding of such pain, which is very typical, but this causes him to not be able to properly bring it to the forefront of his mind.)