20 yr old bochur beginning the battle as we speak, stay strong!! 

Recovery means: livin' life, however way you find that manageable.

deceptively simple sounding statement. And one that should be eblazened in gold in the foyer of my heart. (sorry wierd mood today.. dont know where that came from but you get the point. I like it) 

Absolutely. I'm one of them. Let's all keep fighting this yetzer hara, and Be'ezras Hashem, one day, no matter how long it is, we will win.

Are you guys trying to recover or fight? I am confused. THey are two very different things. Are you sick or just guys who did an aveira? 

Doing an aveira multiple times in a manner most normal people wouldn't do wouldn't that also be called "sick"?

Shnitzel and kugel wrote on 28 Jun 2018 06:10:

You might feel more comfortable with the single ones, but you can defiantly learn from the ones who were struggling from young age, manged to get marry but still struggle.

Hi shnitz, thanks for such an elaborate explanation of something I think many of us have hoped for at some point. I will try to explain based on my limited understanding as I am relativley new here.

For one there is a difference between being sober and being in recovery. I would suggest you read this article for a simple understanding. www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-high-functioning-alcoholic/201005/being-sober-versus-being-in-recovery

Second, i think as cordnoy said  (and I hope I'm not putting words in his mouth) your goal should be not to get out of being reliant on gye/sa/taphsic/chaverim or whatever else you may need. Your goal should be to live a manageable life so you don't need to turn to the drug of your choice.

A simple example would be a particular disease that I have. Some people can eat healthy and always be in remission, others need pills, some like me need pills and infusion others need more medicine and the most extreme need surgery.

I don't know and I don't think you can know yet wether you will need to be on gye for the rest of your life or not. Heck there are tons of very happy people In AA SA SLA for life, and they don't feel like they are always looking over their shoulder. They are always looking for ways to keep their life in a healthy state so they don't need the drug of their choice. 

So in short, I think the goal should be as the name of rabbi twerskis book. "Seek sobriety, find serenity" whichever path it takes to get they. One day at a time.

Hatzlacha.

doingtshuva wrote on 26 Mar 2019 00:45:

Your right, that comment was right when I joined and was clueless.. seems like that day I was angry from the tone of my writing

Thanks cordnoy for that one liner which got me really thinking.. and thanks hakolhevel you also gave me some reading and thinking to do.

And btw it's amazing to see suddenly so many bochurim are joining and reaching out to me. 

Day 23 time goes fast...

Tzvi5 wrote on 25 Mar 2019 22:39:

I see it like this. Mitzvos and aveiras apply to normal people. the torah was given to normal people to keep. A person can do an aveira once or twice and even more and it becomes  ahabit and they are an avaryan. A sinner. 

A sick person has something else missing. I dare say I don't think I am punished for being sick or acting sick when I am regardless of how severe that aveira seems to someone else or how pissed off at me they may be for saying that because it sounds like I am just trying to sin and get away with it. 

The truth though is that when I 'sin' like that, I am MISERABLE. I am out of control hate myself get angry at others and ruin their emotional states along with ym own and a host of other things. I don't think I am punished at that point because I am ne'enas. Forced and compelled by a sick nature. 

I do think I am held accountable by God for not doing what I know I need to do to recover. THere is a slight difference there. 

What bugs me is when sick people try to feed tehmselves the torah approach if it is not going to work. It is like taking an asprin for cancer. It may alleviate one symptom temporarily but at some point it ain't gonna cut it because you got much deeper issues. 

So in short  if you are even a habitual normal sinner, by all means talk about yetzer horas and torah and chizuk. If you are sick, then I believe that language does not enter teh discussion. This is just me. If seeing it that way feels empowering or enlightening in some way oif a new perspective great. If not.. leave it with the rest of the leftovers and someone will be along to clear the table shortly. (I had shnitzel for lunch.. lol) 

Personally, torah never worked for me. Could it work for others, even those who are sick? Possibly.

Where would you draw the line between one who is "sick" vs. One who merely "sins"?
AAlso, would secular people have the same view?
thanx for the post 

THere is no addict test. I think generally the psychologist people say that if the desires are really more aptly termed obsessions then you are sick. But who makes that classification? Usually the person themselves and on THIS anonymous forum for sure, the only one who can define that for you is you.

Sick people know they are sick usually when you really get down to it. They know there is something different about what this 'aveira' is doing to them than others. You may not realize it immediately and in younger years, but as time goes you begin to understand that you are out of synch with your peers. 

I’m looking for a partner around my age (21) to be in touch with about this struggle if someone’s interested hit me up