cordnoy wrote:


did you know that 'fear' might be one of the main reasons we lust in the first place?

By the way, I have a fear of bein' sober.

b'hatzlachah[/quote]

Not that I'm looking for new fears, but what is it that your afraid of being sober?

Hope

Ive been reading all over the forms how our disease is all about selfishness and our our egos, and how its always about ourselves. Not that I'm disagreeing with it. I'd just like to understand.

Yes i believe its a selfish act and it make ME feel good, but every person is born that way. We naturally - like animals - seek out whats in it for us. Naturally we seek to pleasure ourselves. Obviously we need to work on this and that's why were down on here this world, but this isn't limited to people who are addicted to porn. It's a universal problem, no??

And if we were to get really technical, even getting sober is an act that one does to pleasure himself, cause it makes him feel good.

Do i make sense or I'm totally off?

Hope

First try to give selflessly and see what happens. Do you lust less or more? Report the answer, then you can philosophise about it.

Good advice gibbor! I'll keep you posted.

Just a quick update since my last post how i felt like i was slipping.

BH my thoughts are much better and i don't have such a strong urge to act out. However, that familiar euphoric feeling of lusting still pops up and is pretty strong. When these thoughts come up, i hear myself saying "if only i can just..." abstaining from my lusting thoughts is almost like a real physical pain! I actually feel it in my heart, the blood rushing, flushed face etc..
I feel as if my hearts gonna burst! Nah, I know its the addict inside, trying to scare me!

Just realized, my 90th day is being Erev Shavous. What a way to enter Yom Tov! All clean for Kabbolas Hatorah! Instead of shloshes yimei hagbolah its 90 yimei hagbolah!

An extra incentive to stay clean! Thank you Hashem!

Hope

Hopeful2 wrote:


the 12 steps are for everyone.
a non-addict can get on with his life bein' a little bit selfish, a little bit resentful, a little bit fearful, etc.

an addict, on the other hand, will have a much greater task livin' his life if he is selfish, if he has tremendous pride and ego. Workin' on these areas is extremely beneficial in all facets of life.

b'hatzlachah

Wow Awesome Chizuk! I have a simular story as yours and i just started the 90 days. today is day 3!
it feels comforting knowing that I'm not the only one with struggles like this.

Ditto to what Cordnoy said. And notice that he didn't limit it to selfishness and ego, although those are significant defects for many.

Concerning our natural desires, lust is when we use a natural desire for an unnatural purpose. The purpose of the desire for sex is to procreate and to share a loving relationship with another human being. Many of us use sex as a solution to our problems, to relieve stress and to fill a void and emptiness. It is much like a food addict, who eats when he's sad, happy, angry or depressed etc. He is using his natural desire to eat for a unnatural purpose. The natural purpose of the desire to eat is so we have sustenance. To use food or sex for the unintended purposes is to lust. Food and sex become a means to escape from life.

Please give me your thoughts on this, thanks. Can you relate to this and how?

serenity wrote:



Oh I can definitely relate!!

I have many voids to fill and have lots of stresses in my life that cause me to act out and suppress my emotions. And yes I lust in order to escape from reality. However I don't see it as selfish or egotistical.

I see it, that it's extremely unfortunate that me as an individual never learnt how to deal with the normal daily feelings a healthy person goes thru. Such as sadness, anger, resentment, fear, worry, feeling inadequate, and the whole list.

As a highly emotional person, I was never given the tools of dealing with the power of emotions. I never learnt - or even aware of such a concept - how to channel them correctly, and instead I would numb those emotions by watching and obsessing about pretty girls. I was brought up in a house where sadness was considered childish. Who cries when someone hurts you? You just wash it off and move on.

Now that might work for some, but as an emotional person, not dealing with the emotions and just pushing them away will ultimately lead to some form of expressing those emotions. Either thru anger, or to be withdrawn and depressed, feeling inferior, whatever the case, these emotions never ever go away by suppressing them. And when you pull the lid on them, and finally take a look at what's going on inside, you'll see the volcano, just spewing out emotions on things you've thought you long had a handle on.

It was/is a coping mechanism. Once I learnt about this world of emotions I would actually be able to feel a release of energy each time I would act out! It was a "real" way of getting rid of inner pain. Albeit very temporary. Learning how to deal with them is key

And that's what I think - in my humble opinion - is the cause for me acting out and living in fantasyland.

So that's why I'm asking about the selfishness part I keep on reading about, cause I don't really understand it.

Hope

I'm far from an expert but this is my understanding. Anger, resentment and fear are toxic for addicts. People, institutions and ideas cause us to be angry; (mostly people per Dov, if I remember correctly). The reason we get angry at people is because their actions affect our lives negatively in some way. We have a part in those actions of other people and/or we have a part in the reason we get angry over it. Our part or our mistake in due to our character defects. The four main character defects in play at least in terms of causing anger that effects sobriety are: Selfishness, Dishonesty, Self-seeking and fear. Each person may have one or two prevalent defects, more than the others. So, if it weren't for my Selfishness, Dishonesty, Self-seeking and fear I wouldn't be harboring resentments, feeling self-pity and feeling restless, irritable and discontent. The purpose of the 4th step is to identify these character defects together with a third person who is objective.

I will give you an example:

A. I'm angry at my sister. B. She lost our family pet when I was a kid. I've carried this resentment through my life. C. What she did affected my security. I was very close with the cat and it made me feel secure. It also had a deeper emotional impact causing me to be insecure about losing important things in my life. And my sister is important to me an I thought I could trust her. Her trust was important to me. She represented stability in my life. I now had doubts about that further affecting my emotional security. D. (I'm going to look at this 2 ways) As a kid I was selfish. I didn't consider the reason my sister had the cat. That she was taking care of it. Maybe she didn't want to take care of it. Maybe it forced upon her. Whatever I never considered her feelings. I only wanted to know that what was mine was taken away. I forgot all the good she did for me and was just angry and selfish. The fact that I have harbored the resentment for so long, I think goes to my dishonesty. I'm really not angry about the cat, it's just a manipulative tactic that I can throw up at her top get my way. That would also make it self-seeking. The truth is that she loved me with all her heart and would do anything for me. She is also a spiritually sick person.

So now I can start to see that I get angry because I'm dishonest, self-seeking, selfish and I guess afraid as well. That causes me to be restless, irritable and discontent. Is it any wonder that I need an escape?


I can do an example that is exactly on selfishness only, if you need me to. The above was a real example, so thanks for giving me the opportunity to work through that. I probably didn't do it perfectly, but that's okay.

Thanks for that response serenity i really appreciate it. Off topic for a moment, i read your thread and i found it immensely insightful and refreshingly honest along with obviously all your responses to my questions here on my thread & i will be giving you a present for it!



But back on topic, I'm assuming this view is the 12 step view of lust addictions,or any addictions for that matter, correct?

I will need to review this a couple of times since I never saw it this way. Its something drastically different then i viewed this addiction, but then again who am i to say? I'm no expert either just a simple Yid looking to cleanse his neshoma.

Hope

LOL, LOL, that's funny. Took me a minute. I guess you really read my thread! A Karma boost never hurt anyone . Also I loved that you used a spoiler alert function. Seems like it's been so serious around her lately.

Yes, that's my understanding of the 12 step approach, step 4 Step identifies the character defects. 4-7 deals with character defects and asking God to remove them. 8-9 is amends. 12 step believes you need amends to have true serenity. You're not likely to have proper amends without steps 4-7 first. The trip from 1 to 8 shouldn't be as long as many of us make it.

Quick update.

Day 60!! BH! what Chesed Hashem! Never thought this was even possible for me!

Quick observation, the more in-tune i am with my lusting, the more i realize how many things trigger me. And I don't mean trigger as in automatically wanting to watch porn, I mean triggering thoughts, triggering desires.

Here's an example, I see a couple walking down the street. 2 months ago i would've looked at the wife just out of "curiosity and enjoyment", and later find myself in front of the computer with an insane urge to act out and wonder why. But now I learnt its a trigger for me so I don't look, but I can still see who the husband is, right?
However i realize that if i know the family, or when just looking at the husband, out of the corner of my eye i can see what shes wearing etc.. I would be thinking in my thoughts hey! he's so lucky he has such a pretty wife... and that would trigger lusting thoughts. But i would never have thought that looking at a man/husband would be a trigger for me to lust women!

Another example:

Looking at my wife's phone when i come home from work to see her text messages with her friends. All spouses swap phones at the end of the day, right?
Sounds pretty innocent, no? Not for me i realize! I now see that I'm triggered to think about other women when i read their texts. How cute they sound, how smart, etc..

I would never have dreamed that these things would be a trigger for me, without all the realizations I've been learning here on GYE. Who knows what other "innocent" things I'm doing that are actually triggers!

Now my battle isn't about watching porn, it's holding myself back from reading my wife's texts! Those texts are toxic for me! Its much easier not to look at the phone, then fighting the urge to watch porn. Gotta move the battlefield as far back as possible!

Hope

Hopeful2 wrote:


If that, heaven forbid, would ever happen by me - I believe the phones would swap spouses!!!

cordnoy wrote:


Lol! Oy Vey!