Dov has a pretty narrow definition of addict. This also tends to confuse a lot of people.

According to AA (and SA) as I understand it. Alcoholism/Sexaholism is a 2 part "disease" (one of the words I don't like).

1) Obsession of the mind - so you can't just ignore it
2) Allergy of the body - once you start, you can't stop

The 2 in combonation is what makes it so difficult.

If we only had the allergy of the body, we could just avoid it. Since we have an obsession, we keep thinking aobut it, until we give in. Once we give in a little, the "allergy" takes over, and we can't stop. No such thing as just one sip or just one "slip".

Hope this helps.

Well in that case I'm an addict squared

People need to decide for themselves, whether or not they are an addict. I'm pretty sure there is a lot of disagreement with Dov on the issue of people here being addicts or not. I really don't know the definition. I've read a couple articles that say there is no such such as sexual addiction. It's not a medically recognized disease as of yet, like alcoholism is. I've always known that I was a compulsive gambler, I didn't need to read the definition anywhere. I never thought I was an alcoholic, until after years of heavy drinking I realized how much it was affecting my health, my family and my life. Once I really truly decided to stop though, I did. I do go to AA and consider myself an alcoholic, but I'm not what the AA Big Book would call a real alcoholic of the hopeless variety. I drank heavily and foolishly, but haven't had a drink in 20 months. I do very actively attend AA and work the steps, but I don't struggle nearly as much as others. That's not proof in and of itself, because I haven't gambled in 14 months and I never went to GA. And when I did drink, I had some limits. Although toward the end, it getting bad. When I gamble I do not have any limits. I missed my own birthday party, missed countless family engagements, lied, cheated, stole, ate very questionable kashrus, have little need to eat at all actually, don't need sleep, lose all concept of time, blow off work obligations, ignore calls from work, family and friends. My sex addiction is comparable to my gambling addiction and almost all the above applies, except the stealing. I risked my life, health, family and reputation. I was mechallel Shabboss. I spent countless hours engaged in compulsive sexual activity with absolutely no way to stop once I started, day after day. I missed countless days from work. I'll give you an example of powerlessness from another SA that I am close to. He is a highly regarded professional in an advanced position in a major institution. He would masturbate at work in a location that he could easily be walked in on. He risked his entire career. He has had unprotected anonymous relations with people he doesn't know at work related conventions. Just two examples.

Now just because you haven't gone that far doesn't mean your not an addict. Oh and since you want some quotes . Actually I'll paraphrase from the AA Big Book. You don't have to have drank as much as we have, to be alcoholic. And, if someone knows they have a tumor (chas vishalom)they don't wait for it to spread to remove it. The Big Book talks about actual and potential alcoholics.

You really need to read the 1st 4 chapters of the AA Big Book if you want the AA definition of an alcolholic or sexaholic.

The main point of my comment above was, try everything here progressively and see what helps.

As to what can hurt by going to SA, I'm really not totally sure. Personally I'm not really sure I agree with that. What I would guess is I (really these are just guesses - it may all be malarchy):

1. You can be exposed to behaviors that your not familiar with
2. You will be exposed to people way worse off than you, and maybe conclude u are okay
3. Although SA in anonymous, you are putting yourself out there. Why do that if you don't need to.
4. If SA doesn't help it could discourage you
5. While most people I have met seem to be up and up, there may be predators there

The other issue that it's a basic program principal that we don't push people to SA. They have to choose it. Push em before they are ready, can hurt their chances of ever getting recovery. We come to SA because we are desperate and whipped and feel totally powerless. we seek a power greater than ourselves. We don't work on character defects, we ask God to remove them. It's a different approach. When I came to SA, it because I thought I had no other choice, It was SA or jail.


Anyway enough of me, read the first four chapters of the Big Book and read the White Book.

Hatzlacha!

serenity wrote:


Truly incredible you have climbed many mountains.

Hillel is the model that the poor can learn

Yoseph is the model for withstanding lustful temptation

Rabbi Eliezer is the model for learning even with vast wealth and investments.

serenity is the model that even multiple addictions can't stop a person from succeeding.

Wow serenity! Thanks for sharing. It makes me want to read your thread all over again (my memory is bad).
I think Dov has let out a fox among the chickens and a whole bunch of stuff is coming up (not sure if the analogy is good but hope you understand).
You serenity are prompted to (again) be real and admit your wrongs; a bunch of us are thinking if we're addicts, and how to dish out advice. And I'm also doing quiet thinking.

serenity wrote:

Wow! A very interesting observation. It seems to break the orthodoxy of what I understood the GYE institution to be. I kind of thought that it was all about 12 steps, sponsor, white book, phone conferences and as groups.
That notion of mine had been cemented early on when I posted what works for me, I was basically told "each to his own". This kind I got me to understand that GYE uses the SA system - and if you want to do something else on the side under the counter that works for you, then do your own business and keep it your own business.

serenity wrote:

I 100% get this point of Dov - and as explained by you serenity.

Hopeful2 wrote:

Hopeful, This statement above has been on my mind. I want to help you. I want to give you something to run with that would help. But I'm not sure what would help you.
What do you think is causing the stress? Is it something outside of you? Is it something you can do something about? Is it your internal emotional life that you think is the main cause?
Shlomo

Thanks for all the kind words. I'm not trying to define what an addict is for anyone else. Just trying to share my experience. I'm definitely not trying speak for or define GYE and I don't think Dov meant to either. Maybe he'll chime back in here at some point . I do think I'm guilty of giving too much advice at times. It's healthier for me and for everyone else to stick to talking about my experience, strength and hope,

Hatzlacha!

serenity wrote:


Fantastic stuff serenity! And really amazing how far ahead you are I mean battling gambling, alcohol, lust, gosh wow!!

You're right when you say everyone needs to decide for themselves if they're addicted or not. But I think it's a disservice to tell people that they aren't addicts just because you haven't fallen to xxx. Just like you quote the book. "You don't have to have drank as much as we have, to be alcoholic".

While not everyone is on the same level -up or down- I'm struggling like hell (like most people here)and would do anything to stop (Like most people here). Yes it might take me a while to get to a 12 step program for example, but that doesn't mean I don't want to stop. What's the point of telling someone they aren't an addict??

But all philosophizing aside, I must get some real work done. I must get under control. I fell again this Sunday and I still haven't utilized all GYE tools, why?? What am I waiting for?

Hope

shlomo613 wrote:


Thanks for the concern shlomo, it's really kind of you. If it where only one thing.... It's just life in general, while I believe I have a very full plate, I believe every human being is fighting a battle. And probably more then one. That's just life. And so when things get to overwhelming, I just retreat into my cocoon and act out,and that carries me over until the next time:(
It's my unhealthy way of reliving my stresses and releasing negative energy, and just making it worse

Hope

Hopeful2 wrote:

1) Dov is generally careful not to tell anyone they are (or are not) addicts.

2) Dov always says there are no "levels of addiction", meaning, someone that is "just" chronically masturbating - may be an addict, and someone who frequents prostitutes - may not be.

I think there are levels of addiction as far as how hard it is to stop. Some addicts may only act out once a week and may have an easier time stopping than someone who can't go a whole day without acting out.

Here is the exact quote "To be gravely affected, one does not necessarily have to drink a long time nor take the quantities some of us have." AA Page 33.

Ditto to everything Gibbor says in his comment.

From my personal experience of being told that I wasn't yet a compulsive gambler at a youngish age by a GA guy, giving me the green light to continue gambling. (Grammar ?) So I've always considered that a disservice, as you put it. The other side of that coin is he could have told me I was a compulsive gambler and sent me to GA. If GA didn't work, maybe it would have spoiled 12 step programs for me in the future. I do have to say, I'm still on your side. But the most important thing is action as a famous GYE scholar said "But all philosophizing aside, I must get some real work done. I must get under control. I fell again this Sunday and I still haven't utilized all GYE tools, why?? What am I waiting for?"

While we are mentioning AA, let's look at AA sobriety. Sobriety in AA is simple, don't drink alcohol, not one drop. The reason simple, no AA can stop at the first drink. For us it is really no different. We can't drink in images of people that we lust over. We can't entertain thoughts of lustful desires. The reason is the same, we can't stop at one drink.

I recently read an article by an ignorant psychologist who maintains that there is no such thing as sex addiction. That it's not a real addiction and it's just an excuse people use to justify their pathetic lack of self control. This is obviously a bunch of malarkey and the guy is an idiot, but he makes some good points. The first is don't use addiction as an excuse or justification. That's also one of the reasons we don't rush to call someone as addict, before they are really ready for recovery. The other good point he makes, and that is my main point here, is that the choice to stop is many steps before the actual final act, whatever it may be. He claims, and rightfully so, the we have the choice not to take that fist step. In other words we have the choice whether or not to take that first drink of lust. We don't have to put that drop of liquor on our tongue. The second a guy thinks "is there a way I can get around my filter" he just put a drop of lust liquor on his tongue. The second a guy thinks "sure with I could look at some pics" etc etc ....

Here are some parts of the article by Dr. David J. Ley, PHD in Psychology Today



"it is because he is making a choice to do so. Sometimes, that choice, and the level of control over it, happens earlier than we think. Some men describe that when watching p......., they feel unable to exert control, and turn it off. But, when they first turned that computer on, or chose to go into the room where the computer was, locking the door behind them, did they have control then? When a person drives down the road looking for ...(pritzus) ..., they have enough control to safely operate a car, ... When they made the choice to drive home in the way that took them by that corner, did they have control then? At some point in these people's lives, there are decision points, choice points, things that we sometimes call Seemingly Unimportant Decisions, or SUDs. ... It can be hard to avoid making ... unhealthy sexual decisions, when in the heat of the moment. This is why I teach people to identify those SUDs, those early choice points, where they can exert control, and avoid putting themselves in situations where they might be tempted to make bad decisions.

But this requires a significant level of self-knowledge and commitment. And it might not be as much fun or exciting, making good decisions. This is a place where people make choices, about what they want to do with their lives, and what their priorities are. People make these choices, not diseases."



It took me a long time to learn that the second I would take a little detour on the way home to look at pritzus, it was at that moment I was already drinking. The second I would allow myself to just watch a little pritzus on youtube, it was the first drink. The second I allowed myself to fantasize a little, I was already making the wrong decision. I'm obviously far from perfect, but I'm learning.

Hatzlacha!

From that which you quoted, I wouldn't refer to him as an idiot - just yet.
I actually have spoken to dov about that same issue several times, and have written about it.
We are somewhat in control of our SUD's is probably true by many of us.
I don't know how many bad SUD's get me into my addiction mode, but after several, it gets pretty difficult to turn it around.
I like it....thanks for that.