serenity wrote:


Apparently this does not make sense. We have learned that Tora is the tavlin against the Yetzer hara. But this explains why after a great hour of learning mishna or gemara after saying tikun Chatzos in the night, suddenly the urges by me would start going wild wild. Somebody real experienced explained to me what serenity wrote.Imagine the mess we are in . The מלחמה is פנים ואחור, oy if we do not learn torah , oy if we do learn torah. That is why it is vital for us to be spiritually fit and do not stop our soul-work outs. So when we do learn Torah it will enhance our spirituality and not the opposite.It is said Torah is like water to seeds and makes them grow. Whether the seeds are bad or good its up to you.

I'm not sure if you made an error in your first sentence.

I just want to add that I'm not saying that no one can separate their ego from their learning and avodah. I'm specifically talking something someone who has been acting out for years while being frum. People like us end up confusing our ego-worship for avodas Hashem. To quote a friend "we who were frum all along and still failing always ended up inviting Hashem right into our ego-worship that we label 'avodas Hashem".

serenity wrote:


אפשר להסביר?

peloni, I think I explained a little more later in my later comment. More than the explanation, what is important is that we are talking about the actual experience of many people.

serenity wrote:


Bingo! That's exactly what I am saying. The most important part of what you are doing is the fact that you are putting your ego aside and admitting your issues to others. That's also what I am doing by telling a chaver my every shortcoming as it comes up in my daily life, and not hiding anything from him out of shame. This is what The Rebbe Reb Meilach says in the tzetel katan that we need to do. Have you heard from people who tried this that it doesn't work? It is humbling and it hopefully works.

serenity wrote:


reb yakov, i am asking pashut pshat after reading both of your last posts. i came accross this idea several times in the past few days, and i cannot understand it AT ALL. what does it mean to do avodas hashem for your own ego and drag hashem into it? what does ego worship look like, and what are the ramifications of it in terms of day to day life? any link to any post or further birur would be appreciated.
once its becoming a discussion somehow on this thread, i thought it may be a chance to ask for some elucidation.

when i joined gye just over a year ago, the first thing i listened to was a shiur by RAJT which i will never forget. he ased why learning torah and mussar is not enough and why you need AA and the 12 steps. he said that an alcoholic leaves an AA meeting thinking if i take even one drink, i will die. but when u learn mussar, you dont think this bad midda youre learning about will kill you. plain and simple, it does not have the same effect when u walk away from a session. he also said that perhaps ideally it should not be this way ...
dont know if this is exactly what ur talking about, but this made a lot of sense to me.

serenity wrote:


No mistake . I thought apparently means לכאורה. Meaning at first glance.But your statement remains correct.

Disclaimer

Someone after reading my posts was under the impression that I profess to have knowledge of the 12 step program, which is in fact not the case. So In order not to be misleading to anyone I find it correct to disclose that I don't know the 12 steps.

So we hereby are encouraging you to start delving in these 12 steps ותמצא נחת.
You can start by Having the AA book at hand and joining (even just to listen) one of the three telephone conferences daily about the subject. One of them is Duvid Chaim's at 12:00 noon NY time. And there are another two at different times in the day. They start and finish the AA book twice a year.

I love Torah!!

OK, now down to business...

Can you please explain why are you encouraging him (and who please?) to 'try the 12 steps'? I don't get it. Is he having real trouble? Is he acting out his lust - or has he already found good progress and enough peace from the mishegaas of the sweet porn and sex with himself already, without 12 steps?

Curiosity-seekers, we do not need. If he is in real pain - we'll take him gladly!

I'm sorry I have not read the entire thread to know where the guy you are trying to convince to use the 12 steps is holding, but personally as a (thank G-d) sober addict in recovery who goes to meetings, I for one really don't want people who are just good men upset with their sins and their 'incomplete Teshuva' coming to meetings. That description is so, so veit from a person actually ready for recovery, that it's not even funny. He's a danger to the real sicko's (like me) at such meetings.

I really do not know who the guy you are referring to is, so sorry if I'm way, way off, and I hope I'm not c"v insulting anyone! Just asking for patience w me and some clarification of what ur aiming at w 12-step talk here.

...or is this just another one of those good old GYE arguments about yetzer hora, Torah, addiction, etc?

If it is, frankly I'm not so worried about the real addicts any more. After years on GYE and speaking to hundreds (yes hundreds) of yeshivishe, chassidishe guys, frum doctors, lawyers, rabbonim, shlichim, etc, etc...I have learned that the addicts finally break, as i did. They will come to recovery whether 'Torah' should work, or not. We eventually come on our knees, begging for help - often from sober goyim davka before anyone else - for they will eventually be beaten (with their Gemora's, Tanyas, Nefesh Hachayim's and Mesillas Yeshorims b'cheikom) into submission by their (our) own mental disease called addiction. They will come, no worries.

Unfortunately, there is this thing called denial, and it delays that final destination...while families and neshoma's and marriages rot in living hell. We pretend to ourselves that it's all about Teshuvah and 'the struggle with the yetzer hora'...until our shameful failure is brought out into the open. Then suddenly we run to get mental help! Suddenly we are ok with accepting that it's a 'disease'! It's sad how a drop of real shame - real only because we got caught - changes everything. And this entire long, bitter debate within ourselves suddenly becomes moot rather in a hurry.


And going to an anonymous (really 'hidden' - even from each other - and that iss not what 'Anonymous' means in 12 step groups) 12 step call might be a nice way to get introduced to the ideas of the 12 steps. But I doubt there is much seriousness going on within any group of people not bringing their faces - and not even serious enough to use their real names...

To me, that's just allowing the sweet comfort of yet more denial time for the addicts, while they are told they 'are working the 12 steps'.

This entire thing is not about philosophy or Torah. It's about realness.

Of course Torah is real - but it does not work when the learner of it is not being real. And 'real' means only one thing: being real to other real people. Not to G-d alone. Just as Rabban Yochanan ben Zakai clearly taught his students in one of his last shiurim, recall?

Please forgive me if I came on too strong, and please educate me re what I missed about this thread if I'm off-base here.

Thanks,

Dov

Ok this is me the guy that you are talking to.
The guy who i was talking to HashivaliSY for the last many posts wants to understand how i did keep one year without M.So i answered him . and he still not completely sure himself what is he going to do . So we will let him answer for himself your interrogatory.
I myself have not gone yet to live meetings so i can not answer what is it that i want from him. In the last post he said that he has no knowledge of the steps so i replied what i replied.
I do understand your answer and i do realize that in this addiction there are many levels to it. So i may as well leave you to explain to him all his inquiries; i am sure he will show up after all this his his thread.

A question: Dov is saying that the real addicts will eventually arrive in a 12-step group because their actions will eventually catch up with them and when their sickness is revealed to the public they will come crawling.
But wasn't this whole conversation - like so many other ones- about guiding people so that they shouldn't reach that 'bottom'?
For example, me. I also still don't know if I should be going to live groups (I don't feel so) or the phone conferences. But isn't it wise to attend and avoid the eventuality that i am one of those sickos who will reaching depravity? Isn't this so much of GYE principle: hitting bottom while you're on top?
If this post isn't 100% clear it's because I myself am confused.

Dov wrote:

I don't know for sure if I found my road to recovery or not. I hope I did.

Dov wrote:

I am in real pain and I am not a curiosity seeker. I think most people here aren't here out of curiosity but rather in search for the solution to their problem.

[quote="Dov" post=261236]

I'm sorry I have not read the entire thread to know where the guy you are trying to convince to use the 12 steps is holding, but personally as a (thank G-d) sober addict in recovery who goes to meetings, I for one really don't want people who are just good men upset with their sins and their 'incomplete Teshuva' coming to meetings. [quote]
I don't know the meaning of 'incomplete teshuva'. When I have seen that I fell back I knew that my teshuva was not 'real'.
[quote="Dov" post=261236] That description is so, so veit from a person actually ready for recovery, that it's not even funny.[quote]
Some of us are not ready to come to meetings because we aren't convinced that it is called for, but we are searching very seriously for a recovery which is correct according to the level of the problem/
[quote="Dov" post=261236]...or is this just another one of those good old GYE arguments about yetzer hora, Torah, addiction, etc?[quote]
Those of us who have not yet found our paths to recovery need to explore this way to find what path to take.

[quote="Dov" post=261236]If it is, frankly I'm not so worried about the real addicts any more. After years on GYE and speaking to hundreds (yes hundreds) of yeshivishe, chassidishe guys, frum doctors, lawyers, rabbonim, shlichim, etc, etc...I have learned that the addicts finally break, as i did. They will come to recovery whether 'Torah' should work, or not. We eventually come on our knees, begging for help - often from sober goyim davka before anyone else - for they will eventually be beaten (with their Gemora's, Tanyas, Nefesh Hachayim's and Mesillas Yeshorims b'cheikom) into submission by their (our) own mental disease called addiction. They will come, no worries.[quote]
Shlomo addressed this:shlomo613 wrote:


[quote="Dov" post=261236]Unfortunately, there is this thing called denial, and it delays that final destination...while families and neshoma's and marriages rot in living hell. We pretend to ourselves that it's all about Teshuvah and 'the struggle with the yetzer hora'...until our shameful failure is brought out into the open.[quote]
Yes many people don't take the necessary steps because of denial. But not everyone who doesn't end up going to SA meetings is davka in denial. Many of us, I think myself included, are aware that we have a real problem, and are searching the appropriate measure to resolve it. If someone's appropriate solution isn't to attend such meetings, then to do so might do damage. Not everyone who needs to see the cardiologist should be given open heart surgery even though it's a very potent refua. That's a serious remedy only to be administered to the patients who need that exact remedy.

[quote="Dov" post=261236] But I doubt there is much seriousness going on within any group of people not bringing their faces - and not even serious enough to use their real names...[quote]That is sometimes or maybe even often true but not necessarily. Some of us are using other methods for recovery and in addition to that are learning some good things from the wisdom of the 12 step program without actually taking a real live part in it.

[quote="Dov" post=261236]Of course Torah is real - but it does not work when the learner of it is not being real. And 'real' means only one thing: being real to other real people. Not to G-d alone. Just as Rabban Yochanan ben Zakai clearly taught his students in one of his last shiurim, recall?[quote]
I couldn't agree more!

[quote="Dov" post=261236]Please forgive me if I came on too strong, and please educate me re what I missed about this thread if I'm off-base here. [quote]

The strength with which you speak is completely necessary for those who need it and in my response I don't want to weaken it for those people(even though you say it won't hurt because they'll come around anyway). The reason I have responded is to give validation to those who are searching for the solution and don't need to attend SA meetings, because if they aren't validated they will be left קרח מכאן וקרח מכאן.

Hashiva writes, "The reason I have responded is to give validation to those who are searching for the solution and don't need to attend SA meetings, because if they aren't validated they will be left קרח מכאן וקרח מכאן." But you don't offer them any solution, only your theories.

serenity wrote:


In all honesty, I don't have a solution which is tried and tested. I am following this plan of action that I have been talking about and I hope it will work.