Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:


Ok
Bhatzlachah

Hashiva, I've been watching this topic from the sidelines. I must say I believe I understood you all along.
In a past life I've had some involvement (how much is irrelevant: a sexual moment or more) with some women whom I'd be embarrassed to introduce even to mates of mine who are steeped in immorality.
My involvement wa just a matter of lust wherever I can have it.
The personal story in the white book talks about this degeneration from attractive women to skid row drug addicted hookers.

For some reason I can't load the more recent posts on this thread.

I was doing my Shaarei Teshuva. He says that for those who haven't just fallen as an isolated case but who have a chronic issue, azivas hachait comes before charata. I see from here a number of things.

I see that it is technically possible to have charata without azivas hachait, so azivas hachait is clearly not just the feeling bad about sinning and 'wishing' that he wouldn't do it. It is more than that. It means doing something which will prevent or help prevent him from doing it again. This might be doing the 12 step program or going to meetings. Or it could be anything that works for the individual. But it needs to be something that could be expected to prevent the fall.

I also see that after doing the preventative action, he still needs further steps - charata and more as he further enumerates. He says that even though the main dirt is removed with azivas hachait, he must continue to purify himself until he is properly clean. In other words he should attain a level of purity which will actually make him not want to fall in situations where in the past he would have fallen. We all(most) have certain things that would be boundaries and fences such as (mostly)none of us would go to a porn site when sitting together with his wife. In the same ways there can be other things within the person which can deter like that. And if the person keeps those things in his mind, by constantly working the steps of the Shaarei Teshuva, he would have them when the situation arises.

Today I had to speak to a woman, so beforehand I needed a plan. I decided that I would not speak a single extra word besides the actual business. No friendly comments etc. I did that and that way I had the caution in mind the entire time and it helped.

I know though that I can't ever get to feel too comfortable even if I'm clean for a while. I must always keep on learning and working through the ideas of mussar and yiras shomayim.

Thank you. I'm feeling a positive vibe to your posts tonight and some good karma! As I've said in the past you've had my vote of confidence from the beginning.

Hatzlacha!

Enjoyed your post. I appreciate the fact you took the effort to make a plan before you had the meeting. Something I could certainly learn from.
I am also sure that when you only talk business and no small talk you appear a lot more professional and impressive.

I would have liked to thank for your responses but I cant load the recent part of my thread.

I had the meeting that I was preparing for. It didn't go as well as I wanted. There was another woman present at the meeting but she wasn't the main focus of the meeting and I hardly had to say anything to her, so even though she was dressed in a far far more pritzusdike way, actually shockingly pitzusdik that I didn't think a person could come to a business meeting like that, but that wasn't a problem for me because since I wasn't talking to her, I was able to follow my rules regarding her. But the woman who I was preparing to meet was a problem for me. The fact that I was dealing with her. I felt like I can't split myself into 2 pieces. The fact is that I tend to lust. So if I can avoid then that is my avoda. But to be involved and at the same time not to think lustfully, I just don't know. I don't know how to prepare for that. The preparation helped that most of the time I didn't look, and deliberately avoided looking at her untzniusdike parts. But the experience didn't feel right. I was 'enjoying' her company. I just wasn't right. Is the rule that I may not have business meetings with women? Maybe. Answers and ideas will be appreciated.

Make a rule that you have to tell the woman exactly how you are thinking and apologize to her for objectifying her.

You serious?!

That's like telling a woman 'I want you'. It's asking for trouble. Anyway at the very best it's turning our strictly business connection (at least officially) into a personal one. I think the more distance the better, and that would be being marbeh sicha in a big way.

You don't have to actually tell her, just imagine that you had to. Or imagine that she could read your mind. I use a similar trick sometimes when I am in a place withlots of "interesting" people to look at. I pick someone who I respect and imagine that he can tell what I'm looking at and thinking.

The truth is that Hashem really does know all but for some reason it's harder to imagine that, it's easier when we pretend it's a person. "Halevai Sheyehei Morah Shomayim Kemorah Bassar Vadam..."

Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:


no; I don't think you should tell her.
The other method discussed here - maybe.
But ultimately, we need to learn to live life; until then, we are treadin' water in deep waves.

My industry doesn't have me dealing with people dressed a you've described - so I can't imagine how I would feel in such a meeting.
I know that arayos nafsho shel odom mechamdoson - and it's like a red flag for a bull, all my hormones, lust and desire would kick in - as it jolly well ought to when presented with sights like that.
The guys on this site who suggest they've got to a place where they're not unbalanced by this is a real achievement and madreigo. Would I be wrong to suggest that previous generations wouldn't have managed it? And that it's only because we've been thrown into the den with this devil that we have had to learn to fight it. But wow! What a gedullah.
As I said, I haven't had such big challenges so I can't speak, but I hope I'm not wrong to suggest that with time and a large number of instances of effort; and with growing desire for kedush, it will ease?
I'm reminded of the story of Reb matisyahu Ben chorosh who poked out his eyes - and Hashem assured him he would no longer have a temptation. Maybe we can suggest the following pshat: His no longer being tempted wasn't so much a miracle as natural. This is because by him poking his eyes out he was moiser nefesh for shmiras einayim. When a person reaches a point that he so much doesn't want to sin (to the point of such mesiras nefesh!) then his desire is no longer to sin! It's like he's disasscociated from lust. The desire not to sin has kind of taken over other bodily desires and booted them out.
So maybe, in our own little way when we through many small victories build up the desire to have shmiras einayim and kedusha, the temptation is less troubling and intense.
I'm interested to hear other suggestions how it works (if indeed it does) cos even of there's truth to this, it is probably just one aspect of how things work.

Gevura Shebyesod wrote:


Ok I understand. I was taking serenity's idea too literally. I have another meeting today and I don't know whether there will be women. From my experience in this type of meeting, my guess is there may very likely. I plan to try this type of plan. Thanks.

Ditto, to what Gevura Shebyesod says. I'm talking about evoking a state of mind. I had no expectation that you would actually do that. Although if our state of mind was different, it could be a very effective tool. Personally I wouldn't have the guts to do it.

I will say though that I know a guy (married with kids) who is not religious at all and is approaching a year of sobriety who is constantly involved with women in his profession (he's a drama teacher). He was talking to a fellow female teacher and objectifying her. He said to her, I need to apologize to you because I'm objectifying you. She accepted the apology. My first thought was that she could actually find that attractive and could make things worse. I just want to say, that is really the thinking of a lust addict. We (lust addicts) are not seeking a loving intimate relationship with that woman we meet in business, no matter how much one may think he is. If we were seeking that, we'd go home to our wives. We are having inappropriate thoughts that we are ashamed of. They are inappropriate not only because Torah says so, but because they aren't healthy and are even more inappropriate if we are married and/or professing to be living a religious moral life. So we are having thoughts that betray our beliefs, wife, kids and friends. We are living a double life. This totally non-religious guy understands that and he knows that the more he keeps these thoughts as a deep dark secret, the more he will allow himself to have them. Once these thoughts come to light, he can no longer entertain them. That's the place where this shagetz am-haaretz guy (as some may look at him) with sobriety is holding and many here can only dream of sobriety like his. Hashiva, you don't have a strictly business connection with these women, you just pretend to. I'm sorry to say but when we think like that, we are living one big lie.

As a continuation of the above point and in reference to some of your other comments, these women are not your problem. You are your problem, just as I am my problem. And every time I think that some woman is disgusting in anyway, I am just looking at myself in the mirror, because I am every bit as disgusting. I'm even more disgusting because I am living a lie and a double life. This woman is at least being honest.

You see a guy like Gevura Shebyesod has a response like he did for a reason. He's a healthy thinking guy and his sobriety shows it. He's living in the solution. He's not giving away his Power to women that he would otherwise may have at one time described as disgusting or pritzus. Hashiva, every time we look at a woman as our problem, or think of her as inappropriate or disgusting, we are giving our power away to her and we are giving her power over us. Aside from the lie we are telling ourselves, the lie that she and not we are the sick ones. She may be sick as well, but that really not our business and should evoke our ruchmanus if anything.

I agree-the best approach that any of us should take when we see an inappropriately dressed woman either in a business setting or on the streets anywhere is rachmanus. and then adopt what I call the blank subway stare. It works wonders.

I think that the approaches of rachmanus in the office setting and the subway stare when you are leaving work should be employed. Once you even imply that you have anything in common besides working together, you are asking for trouble.