Hatzileini Na wrote:


the so called conformity of the frum community isn't supposed to be a code of laws. the conformity is suppose to be something that you want to be part of . for example, all soldiers have the same uniform. if one doesn't feel connected with the community then he will have problems with the conformity because he may feel like someone is telling him a set of riles that he doesn't agree with.

also, if there's insecurity involved (which everyone has to some degree) then standing out at all won't feel good, because you may feel like you are being examined. not feeling good about standing out has nothing to do with conformity. example being in overly structured communities, such as in the communist towns of Russia, many people stood out for there cause. they did not feel bad about their standing out, but they were upset with the conformity. and vice versa, ppl who have issues with standing out but no issues with conformity.

in your case you had problems with the frum community ( i am not saying that you aren't frum, you just had issues like many ppl do) so you felt like you were being a conformist. however, you had insecurities so you did not want to buck the trend and stand out, even though you may have really wanted to.

what could help is dealing with what you see as issues regarding the "me v. frum community" relationship and also trying to be more assertive in areas that you feel need change.

hope this helps. KOT!

Have you tried davening for sleep?

dms1234 wrote:


Many, many times. Maybe not enough times though... who knows

Take a sefer to bed; it usually works.

WELCOME! I have been reeeeeally busy lately and haven't posted much (and that may continue until after sukkos ). I just wanted to welcome you. It's hard for me to remember my first post, but I remember I was very nervous. It has definitely changed my life for the better (you can look at what my current post number is)!

I have some good links in my signature. You say "as someone who has spent a lifetime trying to understand what makes me tick so that I can improve". Would you call yourself a perfectionist? I am, but I have learned to "let go" a lot and not stress out about things so much. If you answer "yes", you may want to check out Dr. Sortzkin's website (you may want to check it out regardless). It helped me a lot. I have a link in my signature.

Don't look back, keep posting. The chevra here is great!

A belated Welcome HN!!

As I'm sure you feel already, there's nothing to be nervous about, we're all in the same boat, all having similar experiences!

See you around!!

Keep on Trucking!!! Keep on Posting!

cordnoy wrote:


Or listen to a shiur in bed. Make sure to cut out the last minute of the recording first so you don't get woken up by the scraping of chairs

gibbor120 wrote:


Thanks gibbor120. I printed a couple of articles and look forward to reading them.



Regarding a couple of "take a sefer" comments. I heard it quite a few times growing up, and I've tried it many times. I've had nights when I basically learned the entire night. (Which might sound nice, until you realize it killed the whole week's learning during Yeshiva) More often though I'll learn a little and then not be able to focus, but still not able to fall asleep.

I know the comments were meant in good nature and I know it's probably me just feeling sorry for myself a little at the moment, or maybe it's the looks on people's faces who have said this to me over the years, but hearing things like that mostly feels kind of dismissive of the level of disruption and pain that not sleeping causes and all that goes with it.

Over the years I was shamed and humiliated over and over again, called all sorts of things about, told how I was "lazy," admonished I did not care about things like Z'man Krias Shma, reminded over and over again about the value in getting up early (or on time), got points taken off report cards for missing Shacharis etc. Of course this was all while I'd spend miserable nights laying awake, was almost always completely exhausted during the day, almost always falling asleep in school from the time I was in 6th grade or so through years in Beis Medrash. I constantly felt nauseous and sick to my stomach in mornings and often had headaches from lack of sleep. I struggled to focus on learning and the like because I was too tired to concentrate. Exhaustion has ruined all sorts of other things in my life including wrecking dates (once specifically comes to mind where the girl commented asking someone involved in the Shidduch why in the world I would not make sure to be better rested before a date but I've had numerous dates where I was not close to "on my game" because of how tired I was), hurt internships etc.

If anyone has any eitzos, I'd love to hear. I do think as I work on other areas of my life this will Bez"H improve, and it's a little better now than it used to be (although I had a stretch within the last year where I basically went weeks without sleeping more than an hour or so straight, besides for struggling to fall asleep.

My apologies.
Yes, it was in goon nature, and I am sure you have tried that.
It must be frustratin' this situation.
Your positive attitude, however, is an inspiration to us, and should be to you as well.

May God help you in all of these issues.

A gut yar

b'hatzlachah

From your comments, it seems like your teachers etc. either did not know about your sleep condition, or did not appreciate how much it affected you. Did you tell your dates about your sleep condition?

I hope everyone's Yom Kippur went well and thank everyone who has posted for the Chizuk. Being lonely and feeling isolated is definitely one of the worst feelings, and one that leads to all sorts of trouble, so having people who are "in a similar boat" and who are taking the time to read and post is appreciated.

cordnoy wrote:


No worries. Based on how many times I fell asleep in Yeshiva one would think that it would work

I appreciate the comment about my attitude, although I pretty much feel like all I have been doing is feeling sorry for myself. I do hope to continue spending time here, and share a little more positivity as time goes on.

A gut yar to you as well. I hope your Yom Kippur was uplifting.

gibbor120 wrote:


Teachers, family etc. It's not really important though. Thankfully I've reached a point in my life where I understand that it is not something I can really control. I've gotten guidance from my Rebbe on what to when to worry about things like Z'Mand Krias Shma and when you say ones rachmana patrei. Plus my family is now far more understanding. It can still be really disruptive but at least much of the emotional side is much easier.

Regarding dating, I haven't mentioned it on an early date (to explain why I might be tired). Somehow never thought to mention it.

Shlomo24 wrote:


Thanks for the thoughts. I've been giving this a bit of thought which is why I did not post immediately. Hopefully some of the ideas I am thinking come through and make at least a little sense.

I definitely think that are highlighting a valid point. Conformity does not need to be negative, that is definitely true. I think you are also hitting on a point that I have spent a lot of time thinking of and that is that the challenge of peer pressure can be created in an environment even if all the people involved are not trying to make it that way, or are happy with the situation. For example, if everyone in a school is happy acting a certain way, it creates a standard that others may feel pressure to adopt, even if no one in the group was trying to create that standard.

When I talk about conforming, I'm not really talking about things like dressing a certain way. I'm referring to things like the fact that most mainstream Yeshivas focus on Gemara for the vast majority of the today, and teach Gemara in similar fashion. If one is looking for a Yeshiva that focuses less on Gemara it is either because the school is more "to the left" and or because it caters to weaker students. This means that for many kids (and parents) there is no real choice on this. Further, the way that Gemara is taught is fairly consistent across Yeshivas (to the best of my knowledge) despite the fact that there are other ways of teaching. In Kiruv Yeshivas, they spend far more time focusing on the skills needed to understand how Gemaras work and are structured. And Ramchal wrote numerous Seforim (Derech Tevunos, Sefer Hahigayon and Sefer Hamelitza, which were recently published in a single volume with English translation) that discuss the internal logic of the Gemara and logic.

Similarly, there are certain subjects that get little attention in many Yeshivas, including "secular" subjects and subjects related to art and creativity. For students who are intellectually curious, and/or who appreciate and connect to art and artistic endeavors, their strengths get overlooked if not dismissed and mocked.

A common result is that kids who do not thrive in the specific areas that the Yeshivas focus on, end up feeling negatively about themselves, and struggle to find their self worth within the system, resulting in them struggling emotionally, or leaving.

The ridiculousness of this reality is highlighted when one notes a number of facts:
1. Long before people like Howard Gardner highlighted the idea of "multiple intelligences" Chazal spoke about "Chanoch L'Na'ar Al Pi Darko." Further, the Gemara indicates that even a trait like a desire to kill can be fundamental and so such a person should become a Shochet and the like. Yet in Yeshivas we rarely take the time to acknowledge these differences. (Now I know that Yeshivas has severe limitations financially and practically as a Rebbe is trying to balance the divergent needs of a classroom of students, but at least the talents can be acknowledged.)

In many cases, the areas of interest are ones that Gedolim have thrived at through the generations and can be taught from a Jewish standpoint. Sefer Hamelitza from the Ramchal is a guide to grammar. Studying the Piyutim, Kinnos and the writing of so many Meforshim on Chumash (Maharal comes to mind immediately) is a study in poetry and metaphor. (In fact, the Seforim write that the whole physical world is a metaphor designed to teach our physical bodies about Hashem, since the physical cannot connect directly to the spiritual, but can be taught through metaphor.) And many of the Gedolim through the years were highly knowledgeable in the science of their day, as they needed to understand how to apply Halacha.

I'm not sure where I want to go with this, and it's late so I'm going to stop here and maybe continue tomorrow...

ok, i read ur post. im not fully sure where u are going, but i think you are trying to point out that there shouldn't be one track for judaism. i think i can relate to you b/c i am in a very intense yeshiva. i do not share the same ideas as all of them, for example, i want to become a clinical psychologist, which is at least 8 yrs of school. however, what i have realized is i take the positive out of my situation, the positive definitely overrides the negative, albeit the negative is there.

i first was focusing on why i didn't fit and why i don't like the system. now i focus on how the system has made me a better person, and how i have grown with my yeshivas mihalech halimud. the areas that i don't agree with my peers i try to think rationally about. if i am right, then great! if not then i try to rethink things.

the fact that people are doing it slightly different around me doesn't matter, it's my life, not theirs. i shouldn't put my sheetas on them just like i don't want them to do to me.

you seem like a really learned person, but i have the sense that you didn't make peace with urself completely in regards to not needing to fit in. correct me if i am wrong. if you make peace internally then, and only then, can u change ur surroundings. how many pl do u know that wanna "change the world" and say that "they're doing it all wrong", but dont even have themselves worked out? accept urself, u are coming from a totally logical and reasonable standpoint. if u dont fit with "them", well who cares about them? u can always raise ur family and urself with the message that not being like everyone else isn't the worst thing. i know of many successful, frum, amazing families like that.

YTC!

[btw i also have sleeping issues, 1 am chavrusas? :) dms suggested it]

Hatzlacha raba in tge fight! Have you tried to drink warm milk to help fall asleep? A refua shilaima!

Hey everyone,

I fell badly over the first days of Yom Tov and fell 3 days in a row, something I had not done in a very long time. (The few times I'd fallen in the previous year, I was always able to bounce back and move forward.)

I was sick pretty much the first days of Yom Tov and between not feeling well and not sleeping I got into trouble.

Over the last few I've been doing a lot of thinking and I feel like I may want to go speak to a professional. Feeling pretty down now, but I think that it's an important realization. Well beyond this issue (not that this is not important in it of itself) there are things I've been carrying for way too long, and I think that sorting those out may help all around...