I don't understand that. You say taphsic worked like a charm, but you said in your OP that you've hit rock bottom.

I don't think SA is a magic fix that works quickly. It's a lot of work and commitment. You can't just turn up for a few meetings and judge it based on that. It's not even the meetings that work, it's the steps, which are hard work. But I'm not going to go on about it as I fell today.

Does what go out the window? If you were clean for a day, you were clean for a day. Nothing can change that.

Absolutely not. What do did the past fews months is incredible and it sounds like you are growing but that doesn't mean you are recovered and it also doesn't mean you ready to date.

I would say forget about the dating right now because as you said you don't think you'll start for at least another couple months. You can evaluate again then. But for now move on and take every day as it comes.

guys firstly i wanna thank you all for responding these past few days have been hell on earth and you guys have really been my lifeline... thx
ok so 1) dr. watson your asking good. what i taka meant was that the taphsic worked but always after it was over i would really fall hard. so i decided to do it for a while without it to be able to work the problem without this crutch. because when i was using the taphsic it was like the tiava was taken away from me it wasnt even hard. so thats what i meant. also i understand that a day clean cant be taken away but really what does it matter if i fell further then ever these days clean are nice on paper but tachlis they mean little.
dms1234 ur saying good i will try to do that, its just hard when i know that this will be with me forever almost like im not guy that would be preferred anymore not a good guy anymore if anyone knew. till now i was a good guy and now, well why would someone want me... i am ... used goods (for lack of better words)

i don't know what you did and what you didn't do, but that is in the past.

there are fellows on this site who did worse than you - while they were married - and they are still married and are happily recovering, so just cut it out with the "used goods" story. im not saying that there shouldn't be teshuvah for whatever you did, but we are focusing on recovery here...nothin' else!

now, something I don't get here.
You know that you will not date for 2 or 3 months, but you don't think you can hold out for 4. How da hell do you know that? You a navi? where'd you get that from? And you said you went to meetings...you didn't say how many times...maybe that takes 2 or 3 months as well.

so what exactly do you KNOW, and what exactly don't you know?

maybe you, I and everyone else here don't really know squat....maybe all we know is that we are not in control and we accept that and we gotta work the steps, tools, books and program enough so that we can - with the help of God - get thru the next moment.

Sorry if Im comin' on too strong, but I want you to get outta this funk.

b'hatzlachah

Actually cordnoy I appreciate the intensity its good for me
Ur saying good, taka we don't really know what will be in the future and for some stupid reason it kinda helps to know that guys have done worse in worse positions and are still ok so that's reassuring.
Regarding the program I realize I was unclear, I did the night call for a good long while probe like 3 months didn't help me really, I saw that I kept on falling regardless of what I told myself about RID etc. and I said that the proof is in the putting, I'm not saying the program doesn't help it just didn't do much for me, I still use some of the methods but I mix it up with other gye things. But regardless ur right focus should be recovery and I have to start thinking that way.

Mr. clean, I haven't noticed in your posts a mention of you talking to anyone else, have you opened up to anyone? Do you have anyone that you are in contact with consistently?

I will tell you from experience that I would never have been able to keep clean if not for talking to friends. Here's why, because I would be running in circles in my head, around and around and around, and around again, without even stopping to sing "ad kahn hakafah alef"!!!

Dov always says "do you really expect the same head that got you into the problem, to get you out?!" My head is a dangerous place, it can't think clearly and entirely honestly by itself. When I discuss things with friends they become clearer, and I can see my situation much more objectively.

Feelings are strong things, and I find that the only way to deal with them is by discussing them with an outsider, something outside of my head. Only then do I find that I can see what the right thing is to do, and I can separate myself from my feelings, after all, I am not my feelings.

So you say you did the call, you told yourself, etc. but did you do all in your head? Was it all the same back and forth as when you fighting as to whether or not you should act out?

mr.clean wrote:


Again, I don't want to go on and on about SA as I'm a newbie myself. But I think it's very important you understand that what you describe is not the program. It sounds like you haven't actually worked the program at all. So to say it doesn't work for you is a nonsense at this point.

I listened to many phone conferences and also didn't find them all that helpful. Now I go to live meetings and there are tangible differences. In fact they're so different you can't really make comparisons. Apart from that, meeting people in your position, exchanging phone numbers and using those numbers when you need to is a huge side benefit of live meetings that I never got from the phone conferences.

My sponsor keeps telling me that the meetings themselves are not the program. The 12 steps are the program and they take a lot of work on your part. Just going to meetings is not doing anything. It's like going to a doctor when you're ill but not taking the medicine.

I wonder if you don't really understand what's involved in the program. That's normal, it can be hard to get your bearings. That why it's important to have a sponsor. Again, if you haven't got a sponsor you're not really working the program.

IMO live SA meetings are what you need. I say that because you say you've tried a lot of things already and your problem is getting worse if anything. Periods of abstinence are great, but all too often we use them as an excuse to not really work on the real problem. I know I have. I used to completely reject SA meetings. I used to say "They're for the really messed up people, but I'm not so bad. Plus, I don't need a meeting to rely on, I'm getting better, look - I'm falling much less than I used to! I used to get very depressed, now only a little depressed! Marvelous!"

Eventually I went to meetings anyway. Why? Cos I was fed up! It had been two years of trying everything under the sun except SA and I had improved, but only superficially. The question I asked myself was simply how many more years am I prepared to waste trying to prove that I don't need SA?

You keep talking about guilt and worry over the future. Guilt is a feeling that Hashem created in order to get us to change and do things differently from now on. I think you mentioned two points, but really that's not what you wanted to know. You want to know how to get rid of both guilt and worry today, how to get rid of these feeling of discomfort today. I think the discomfort is an inner turmoil where part of you is not entirely ready to give up acting out forever and wants to prove that you can improve by yourself, and part of you knows that it's not true and I think that deep down you feel like you're at a crossroads. There's a decision to be made now. Do you continue down the same path, improving slowly but falling hard, or choose a different path that involves not only a hell of a lot of work, but also true acceptance of yourself and your situation, and a genuine willingness to never act out again.

That's a hell of a choice.

May Hashem guide you down the path that's best for you.

pidani u ask a good question and in fact I did and do have people that I'm talking to including dov.
Dr. Watson I hear you about the Sa meetings ill definitely take it into consideration but there is more to take into account before I just go to the Sa meetings. I don't think I have been getting progressively worse necessarily I think that I was always holding at this point where if a girl actually became available for some fun I would've have taken the opportunity, what else was I fantasizing about the whole time? This is what led to the whole porn problem in the first place.

so the fact that you took advantage of the opportunity is not worse?
what would be worse then?

and by the way, depending on your level of addiction, im not sure I entirely agree with the good young doctor....the sa meetings themselves are extremely beneficial even without a sponsor or steps....but again....that depends on the person.

as of now, I am not officially doin' the steps, but I gain a great deal from being a member of a growing group of sa'ers.

thanks

b'hatzlachah

Making an anonymous phone call is NOT the same as doing SA. That requires 1) going to LIVE meetings 2) working the steps with a sponsor. (I have heard that #2 is the more important one) You have not done either, so you have not tried using the steps. It sounds like you heard some 12 step concepts, and that's it.

You say taphsic worked like a charm, but then it ran out and you fell and you can't make a taphsic forever. So taphsic is apparently not working either.

I'm just stating the facts. No advice here.

Now for the advice part - I do happen to agree with the general sentiment expressed here that to worry about a fictional wife that you may or may not meet for a while doen't make a lot of sense right now. First get yourself into recovery. Then worry about it. I think your guilt will lessen considerably once you are in active recovery. By the time you meet that someone, you will probably be in a much better position to make a level-headed decision about it.

Cordnoy, what would be worse at least what I think would be to actively seek out strip clubs massage parlors etc. here I knew In my head the possibility of this happening but it was never A guarantee that this would happen I didn't plan on going there necessarily because of this I just happened to not have taken the precaution of not going once I did know about it.
And gibbor your saying good and I still am trying to find something that works for me, but the reason I am worried Is mainly bec of guilt, it hurts so much when I think about what I have done and regardless of what I'm told it does feel like my efforts till now are really not worth much bec look where they got me... HERE!. I know this may sound like just more of the same and I'm just reiterating myself but this is the fact its an open wound and the pain that comes is the pain of guilt/betrayal of future spouse. I don't know how long it'll take for this wound to close up and begin to heal and that's also unnerving, and I do feel like I'm starting form scratch (how could I not?!) BUT I hope ur right gibbor that once I find something that is working or just simply start sobering up ill begin to feel better about myself and be Able to block out any unwanted thoughts of guilt etc. I really really hope.

Man the inner conflict is palpable.

You write like Jekyll and Hyde.

Excuses followed by a desperation to change followed by another excuse followed by more desperation to change.

No wonder you feel guilt and fear.

I just don't know how to help you see it. Please see it!

Im not even sure if you ever wrote what happened...not that I need to know....but I guess what you wrote as being worse is something that I did many a time; so.... if we take what youre sayin' as if it was from Moses at Sinai, I was/am worse than you, and doubly worse, for I am married, and guess what buddy? I am in recovery mode and I block out the guilt of the past, and yes, one of the 12 steps is to right the wrong of who I injured, and that I guess will have to happen sometime for closure, but in the meantime, we gotta plow onward.

And Doc, every situation is different....but when you write to others, your words are very often golden....keep it up! write to others; perhaps whenever youre down...instead of hashin' out your situation, pick on one of us guys and let 'em have it!

thanks

b'hatzlachah

I understand why u say that I just feel like what I was doing till now was the best for me and now that didn't even work, it let me down.

after a terrible very depressing fall with intolerable feelings of pain and guilt and the whole works that i didn't think i would ever get over, didn't think the sun would shine for me ever again....

a few months later i got over those feelings and things were going good and the sun started to shine again....

and that was the worst thing in the world for me

cuz i didn't take the hint and didn't start to really work on this properly and shortly thereafter i fell again even harder than before