Thanks
just to clarify what i'm saying
for me when i found that the source of my acting out is based on an addiction which is an hopeless condition of mind & body I came to believe that the מהלך to get rid of this pain is to work the program which helped others in this state so I do have to work the 12 steps as they giving it over

what i'm saying is for the one who claims that he is NOT under this condition, just the NORMAL תאוה he is able to "lust like a gentleman" but here in there he fell & he want to stay בקדושה because אידשקייט the מהלך would be נחפשה דרכינו ונחקורה ונשובה אלהשם we have to take an honest look on our battle why cant we stay בקדושה why our previous גדרים וקבלות doesn't work for us, one of the thinks we have to look is, if we r fooling ourselves with our capability of handling just a bit, and with the capability of the yth"r to make us fall
when you relies that your in a danger state against the yth"r your גדרים will probably be much more effective

You may enjoy this peice I posted on my thread.

Mottel says Hi!

בידו אפקיד רוחי wrote:


1- I agree with everything you wrote in the quoted post above.

2- I wrote:


And you responded:


Let me clarify something. Let's be honest now, that the deepest hopes of Kelm, Novahrdok, and Slobodka, have largely failed. There are very, very few people - and practically no yeshivos - that are mussar-based. R Yisrael's derech of 'learning mussar b'hispaylus', and those yeshivos basing their existence entirely on mussar concepts being even more important than halocha in some ways - is pretty much gone.

[For example, a certain talmid in Slabodka was in a special year long Shas b'iyun-rav and mussar program. His father died in the middle of that year. The Alter witheld the news of his father's death from him - even though he would be an oveil, etc - for the Alter saw this talmid was destined to be a true gadol hador (which he did become) and the alter felt it was a mistake to interrupt the special seder he had that particular year of Shas b'iyun-rav with mussar, etc. He gave him the shmu'ah rechokah when his year was done after the siyumim and he sat shivah then, instead. OMG.

What about [i]aveilus[/i]!?

The guys in Novahrdok would go into a chicken store and ask for nails knowing they would be told by the guy at counter that they were idiotic - just to learn to overcome the shochad we all possess og caring so much what others think of us. What about the possible chilul Hashem? If the butcher would know that this was all 'just a ritual of those mussar bochurim', then he would understand, maybe play along - and the entire shame-challenge would be blown for those talmidim anyhow! So, obviously it was based on acting in a way that people would truly see as weird and stupid. OMG.

What about chilul Hashem, annoying a feelow Jew (or even a goy), being machshil a person in thinking ill about a talmid chochom (Chaza"l and the Zohar h'k go on and on abt the chumrah of that!), etc!?

Ella what: These unique people saw a big picture that was bigger than individual right or wrong - a larger goal. Very dangerous, but we generally accept today that they were right. This issue is a thing the chassidim of old would understand very well. They innovated in the same way to save the Jewish lives of millions in Europe. Most of us accept today that they were right. You serve Hashem, not the shulcha aruch - so start thinking about what really works to make you a honestly good Jew, rather than primarily focused on being as frum as the average guy around you. And this takes very, very 'big plaitzos' indeed. It's scary - and that is probably why we have no more places like the beis midrash of the Maggid or like the true mussar-based yeshivos, any more. They'd get ostracized today! There are no people around like the alters of kelm, slaobodka and novahrdok around any more - at least none who are accepted as reliable. And it's probably a good thing, too, because who among us would have the clarity to make such horo'as sho'os correctly? Probably the reform rabbis see themselves doing just this kind of thing all the time (sorry for anyone Reform reading this feeling insulted but it is just my personal feeling on the matter) but they are not ro;ui lekach and end up making a new religion, not yiddishkeit.

Now to my point, be"H:

People who are simply trying to live as 'basic' kosher Jews - and yes, there is such a thing - can do OK without the mussar derech you refer to, or whatever. They will do as i layed out: simple Teshuvah on the latest mayseh, try hard to set up honest gedorim, and be totally honest and totally open with safe, actual people about exactly what they are doing. They will (R"l) fall every now and then, and it won't be pretty - but who said life is supposed to be pretty?

But you seem to be referring to a higher person than the average guy, though you may not want to agree there is a difference and that they are in the majority. I think you are referring to a person who truly feels he or she must be free of this issue, must overcome his or her yetzer hora. A person who honestly feels he or she must completely stop - and is honest enough with themselves to admit that they will not completely stop without a real miracle.

Even though they are not addicts.

Most people talk like they are in that group, but are truly not. I have been an adolescent, too, you know. I spent many years dreaming I would be a R' Akiva-tyoe figure, a yochid. But as it became more and more clear to me that I would essentially melt into the crowd as an average Jew...i started to need sex and lust more and more. It was a terrifying realization. Crushing.

So I know what it is like to feel and say things like, "Oh, yes, I absolutely MUST stop! I cannot possibly tolerate spilling even one drop of zera ever, ever again. Nor can I ever again seell my eyes to the maloch who will burts them in my grave after I die! No, this cannot possibly go on. I must then become a true kadosh.

But I could not.

It was just pure (religious) gayvoh. All the "vayiboh libi b'darkei Hashem"s in the world do not make it really so. I wished it - but was not one of the yechidim who were really willing to give it all way - do whatever it takes - to become a kadosh.

And neither are 99% of the people on this website, sorry.

We are weak - especially in our faith in G-d. Even R' Yochanon ben Zakai told his talmidim that they cared far more about what people thought of them then they cared about what Hashem thought of them. And those talmidim were tannoim!

Yes, we are Jews, and we want to be good - really Good. But it is also very likely that our bubble needs to be burst about how much we really care about all this spiritual kedusha stuff vs everything else in life that is truly important to us. And the sooner the better.

Pretending it was all about the ruchniyus meaning I could dress things up in, was the derech I started off with - and I see it all over. It leads to churban in many respects. While frumkeit and schlarship/lomdus is being propelled to the forefront higher and higher - true, basic mentchlichkeit takes a seat further into the back of the bus! In some places it now sits in the women's section of the bus! No wonder it is often only the girls that learn all about yashrus, yir'as Shomayim and true bitachon, etc. Those things are pushed into the back of the bus.

Should our women be trained to be faithful, patient, and trusting of Hashem - so that they will be able to endure husbands who are sitting in three sdorim a day and masturbating to porn - and acting like they are holy? I meet too many who sincerely believe it is the wife's role to 'save her husband from sin' (misundrstanding a Chaza"l) - and are just pigs when it comes to sex. These otherwise good men often complain that their wives are too tzniyus, or do not want sex with them in a satisfying way (or at all) - and they never see that they themeselves spent the first two years of their marriage being sex chazeirim and thereby turning their wives terribly off from sex!

It's a bad situation in a lot of places. I did all these things, so I know a bit about it and can see, b"H.

The average guy (Jew or goy) out there who wants to stop using porn and masturbating, is not an addict. Just like the average guy who drinks too much once in a while is not necessarily an alcoholic. These guys do not really need a miracle from G-d to live life - for they are not really interested in stopping these behaviors. Sure, they may fantasize religiously how great it would be to be absolutely clean from sin or alcohol...but they like it too much to really have to give it up.

And it may be wrong, but I do not blame them. For I'd never have given it up if I really didn't have to, either.

But if you really have a Jew here who feels he must absolutely stop completely - for whatever reason - then I agree that they need a miracle to do that, and that is what Chaza"l are referring to there. Most people simply do not come onto Hashem for victory in sin issues any more than they really truly come onto Hashem for their parnosah, for example.

True bitachon and falling onto Hashem is suddenly present when it comes to porn and masturbation - but not in anything else? I seriously doubt it.

thanks Dov for the breath of fresh air..........................

gratefull to be sober today.

thanks dov
i will need to read it a few times, cuz im not so good in English, yiddish is my mommalushon,

Gevura Shebyesod wrote:
Please say hi back from me. If you can get him to send a post in (and some lunch), that would be fantastic!

gibbor120 wrote:

Ditto!!

Thank you Dov for explaining this so open and clear

I’m just trying to get you
So you are talking now of 3 kinds of people

the 1st - People who are simply trying to live as 'basic' kosher Jews - and yes, there is such a thing - I like ur expression, this is the one they are in the majority and the right answer will be
Dov


the 2nd - a higher person than the average guy,- the answer is -
you wrote



& now to the 3rd - Most people talk like they are in that group, but are truly not. the answer would be:



then you wrote a problem


you wrote in the previous post




then you wrote



so here are a few bubbles,
the bubble of pure (religious) gayvoh
the bubble of Pretending it was all about the ruchniyus meaning I could dress things up in
the bubble of they may fantasize religiously how great it would be to be absolutely clean from sin or alcohol...but they like it too much to really have to give it up.
let me try to push the pin into the bubbles

all the chz”l and muser i had referred too, wasn’t the kelm derech, just pure mentchlickeit based on the rmb”m & shulchon urech mesilas yeshurim
and i didnt speak for the one who dreams to be the yuchid kodash just the poshuta yid must give up sin in order to be a yid he doesnt have to learn ‘muser b’hispalos’ but he do need to keep back from sin even he like it too much to give it up

dressing up the torah’s mentchlickeit into rucniyus is a consequence of self seeking motives a bubble which need to be burst besides pure gayvah thinking of being the yochid kodash

yes i can identify with the chasir you mentioned but i never dreamed to be the yochid kodash & allways knew that to stay arlich i need to give up things, my case was that i’m masturbating since age 10 and never had a chance to be open minded to learn the basic mentchlickeit through any source of info, until i hit bottom and Hashem guided me through the 12 steps shuold i stop to practice yiddishkeit in the way i learned it from my rosh yeshiva because I will never be the kodush I dreamed in my teenage, I will keep white knuckling as a bainony - as the 'tanya' described it - even I will never be the yochid

Sorry to whoever's thread this is - please tell me if this is hijacking! Hi, Jack!

Regarding the above, someone here PM'd me:




Whoa...Just let me clarify that I am not saying we chronic frum masturbaters must not believe in G-d, c"v. But rather that we lack the same awareness of Him as our partner right here and right now - or as you put it so well, we do not believe in Him (and Torah realities in general) 'enough'.

The Chofetz Chayim put it this way: In every sin, there is a touch of apikorsus. The Gemorah puts it differently:


The thing missing is not Information, but something more subtle and precious. You ask, "If knowledge of H'shem and gehenim etc.. isn't at all able to get you to stop - what could?". Well, there is obviously such a thing as knowledge without any Da'as. Da'as is awareness - the kind of awareness you and I have that makes us draw back our hand from a person swinging a stick at it so we don't get hit. We do not figure out we need to do it - we simply are innately aware that it is the right thing to do right then. It's not a moral issue, not an intellectual one, and certainly not a religious one. Da'as is also why frum Jews do not mindlessly flick a light switch on or off on Shabbos. New ba'alei Teshuvah (as all of us who were once that will attest) know it is wrong to flick off the switch on Shabbos and even deeply desire not to flick it on or off - but they do flick it sometimes (Arrgh!!) and it is an early struggle they all have. Not a struggle to 'be good', but just not to forget and run on autopilot - a struggle for mindfulness, awareness, Da'as. The simple, inner awareness that it is Shabbos is not tangible and does not prove that 'we are good'. But it's so precious...

'Finally figuring it all out' or studying hashkofah/chassidus/mussar to 'get it all straight' is of no use here. We here, have been there and done that for years - that's why we are here on GYE! Simply put, for a guy who has already been through 'the system' and ended up chronically porning and masturbating anyway, just knowing about G-d and trusting in the veracity of Torah now will obviously not do it [/i]! It is obviously not any lack of Torah knowledge that is our problem.

The problem is ignorance of its relevance to ourselves. It's about self-acceptance, rather than running from ourselves and calling that 'avodas hashem'. We cover our own selves up from us by doing enough of this or that really good thing (learning, believing, 'Teshuvah', getting married, etc.) and convince ourselves that we are basically normal, or OK - but just have 'a really disgusting habit'...to me that is more like Yirovom's status as Chaza"l describe him: a 'shakul' - balanced aveiros vs mitzvos. He maintained that so that the Din 'couldn't get' him. Yes, we who save face by pointing at our sincere crying in davening, apparently deep avodah - between wild masturbation sprees - are very much like that, but do it just to satisfy our own consciences...our real god.

My foolishness, our foolishness, no? A chronic masturbater who is frum and keeps on searching for and using porn and/or masturbating obviously loves it! He may indeed be in terrible pain from the sperm having to come out - but his very gut itself is screaming to him every day that "this is sweet, this I absolutely need! It's a pity, but I cannot live without it, nebach." And we know it is the truth. We do love it - even though we hate having to do it - and we we who keep doing it obviously have not accepted that we can truly live without it. Yes, we here on GYE like to fantasize about 'Teshuvah gemurah' and make great pronouncements like, "I never want to do that ever, ever again!!" But we know that it's putting on a show to ourselves. Rather than admitting we are truly ill and broken, we are just trying to save face by making it all sound respectable: "It's a groiseh bitter nisayon." C'mon...

And where should he or she go from here? Even deeper into the same bittersweet 'working on himself'?! Just watch how some guys run to that. They advocate even deeper 'working on myself' - isolation disguised as deeper 'yichud' with Hashem and deeper 'avodah'. Gevalt...smells too respectable, no?

So many here tell of plans for beating this problem that are ultimately based on increased isolation: "I will make an agreement with myself to give this to tzedokah, I will daven thus-and-so I, will go to the mikvah with this in mind, I will read and really, really think it over in my head and work on myself doing this or that every day, etc." We naively pretend that being open 'to Hashem' is really being open at all! (Ask the talmidim of Rabban Yochanan ben Zakai - he taught them that we (and even tanno'im) take people far, far more seriously than we take Hashem.) And even so, few of us really speak the truth even to G-d. Few of us really talk the truth to G-d. Few say to Him, "Tatty, I masturbated last night and know that tomorrow I will want to masturbate even more, again; I look at porn videos and masturbated myself again today; Tatty, sex with my wife was so shameful for me today because I know what I did in the afternoon at work." We use an excuse of 'lashon nekiah' - geval! Lashon nekiah is what He wants? No! Rachmonah liba bo'i - He wants your true heart. He knows all about the masturbation for he is in the bathroom with you, in your body and watches it all. So why the shame? It's only there to try and cover it up from ourselves. He wants us to say the truth to Him in detail and be honest with Him. Chosamo she haKadosh boruch Hu is truly Emess. 'Lashon nekiyah' in tefiloh to Him is just the same lying as 'meshaneh mipnei haShalom' that we have all used for ruining our marriages by harboring ever deepening dirty secrets for years and years till we burst and get caught bringing the entire world down on our wives...

Lashon nekiyah...Do we say to our kids, "Oy, I bleib with a groiseh bechinah of ahavah klapei you"??

I say that any frum masturbater who has not yet used that exact word in Shma Koleimu (or before Yihyu leratzon at the end of sh'moneh esrei) or has not yet described in real explicit words to his G-d exactly what he does when he acts out his lust, has never davened honestly to Hashem yet. And if he tries to but it is too sexually stimulating - I suggest that he probably won't be able to do it right with t'filoh until after he has spoken it out to real humans first. That's the way it seems we work. The Gemorah says, "O chavrusa, o misusa" - One cannot live without a friend. And it also says "cherev el habadim" - those who insist on getting wisdom only on their own, will not survive. I am simply applying them to sanity and recovery, be"H, and they are so very true here. R' Elimelech in his Tzet'l Kott'n section 13 writes of telling a chover ne'eman all the details "without holding back any detail because of the shame". Nu? But...

We run after everything and any eitzoh or gimmick but simply and honestly opening up about all the truth about us and our behaviors to another real, safe human being who understands exactly what it is like to be human and to be truly broken in some respect.

Da'as comes from making it all real - as real as the sweet feeling of orgasm that we run after is. Real - not virtual - people are real to us. That's why we do not want to open up to them (see the 'Captain Kirk' post about that, if you wish). If we want real recovery, we need real recovery relationships with real people. And that will give us the da'as we seek, one day at a time.

So you asked how anything will stop us if knowledge of G-d and gehinom does not stop us, and I answered that there are two separate things: knowledge of religious facts - and honesty with ourselves. Until we are first accustomed to being fully honest with other real people, we will not have real honesty with ourselves. And until we have honesty with ourselves, we will not be truly honest with G-d. So whatever religious facts we happen to 'know' will simply not make a significant difference when the realities of what we feel argue with it, and out the window it goes! But a person who is honest with G-d, with people, and with himself, will get all the Da'as he needs (b'da'as chadorim malei'u), one day at a time.

It may not be easy, but it's very, very simple: Just get used to telling the truth. Can't do that alone.

בידו אפקיד רוחי wrote:


I have never seen the three categories of people as you wrote it out so clearly, thanks for putting it so straight, chaver (whatever your real name is).

A 'beinoni' of the ba'al haTanya, we will probably not be, though. His 'beinoni' is a tremendous, hoiche level - basically what most people refer to as a tzaddik. But for me, it is fine to be simply us. Honest you and me. Honest and imperfect, and honest about our imperfection. When all the pop-mussar and pop-syche dust settles, we end up a lot closer to perfection this way, anyhow.

And I am not certain what you mean by 'white-knuckling'. When people in AA or SA use that term, they mean a negative thing, the same old things we always did, just better: "resisting for just one more day" - which is craziness and guaranteed failure. In recovery circles we talk of "letting it go for today" and having no concern or involvement in what may or may not be tomorrow. It's not a mind-game, pretending there is no tomorrow while watching the yesterdays build up (somehow? I thought is was one day at a time, no?), while we count the days to 90 or whatever...

Being graded 'a tzaddik', 'beinoni', 'rosho', or whatever, is of little relevance to me. That's all G-d's affair. Thinking about that whole business is, for me, the children of the ego and nothing more. It only gets in the way. I am lucky just to be sober - and to remain true to myself so that I can stay out of G-d's way and remain sober. In recovery, I am His and He is my very own G-d. As R' Tzvi-Meyer says, it's 'Elokai' that we need. G-d needs to be be our very own, yedid nafshi, as R' Tzvi-Meyer puts it, and not a just concept of 'havayoh b"H'. That's personal, that's real. Since I happen to choose to be a Torah Jew (because I believe Torah is the truth), I try to keep the mitzvos.

I know I will fail at doing it perfectly and need to be patient with myself...and know that Hashem is far more patient with me than I will ever be with myself.

Dov wrote:


All these posts have been very helpful. Please everyone keep on posting.

But there is something that has been bothering me throughout all the talks of recovery:
Dov wrote:


I really do get it. Opening up to real people about my real problems will absolutely help me stop. So why don't I just go ahead and do that?

I know over-analyzing and thinking too much doesn't do me any good, but I can't bring myself to speak to live people about this unless I clear this up.

It seems like there are 2 parts of a lusting problem: there's the aveira involved, and then there's the chemical/physical/emotional/psychological... imbalance (or sickness or whatever you wanna call it).

So I agree that a lust addict who is as completely helpless as an alcoholic or any other addict, must absolutely go to an SA meeting asap. and I think it makes sense that a regular healthy person who has a yetzer hora, shouldn't overcomplicate his life, and just start to work on himself in a true and meaningful way.

But what if I am a hard-luster. I clearly have an issue that I need help with. But is it very different than my semi-addiction to loshon hora? Please don't pounce on me for using a mashal that isn't really the same as the nimshal. I'm just saying that if I would confide in people every time I spoke or wanted to speak loshon hora, this would definitely help me stop doing it.
And while we're at it I think I should start coming home every day from yeshiva and tell my wife that I shmoozed for the first ten minutes of seder, and I was spacing out for a couple minutes in the middle... I'm sure that openness with my wife would help me with my shmiras sedorim.

This is not meant to be sarcastic. I'm just saying that I don't need to be convinced that opening up will help me. But I would like to know if that's for sure the best way.

Since I joined GYE I feel that I have made some real progress. I think this forum has been a way for me to open up to others, but really to myself. I have come to recognize that I have a real problem, a sickness. I also realize that what I have been "trying" until now, will not work. At the same time I see that there are others like me and that has helped my to accept myself. I can stop hating myself and start helping myself.

I have found that my overall attitude in life has improved. My relationship with my wife has become more open and pleasant (I mean outside the bedroom, although inside has also improved due to my new outlook). And I have been sober for a while (not counting so not sure how long) and I don't feel like I am white-knuckling.

Believe me, I don't think I am in any way "cured" or that I will ever be. And I don't think that I am able to get recovery without doing real work. Work that is yet to be done. But am I crazy if I don't think an SA meeting is for me? Or if I don't want to put my wife through some horrible pain? Looking for direction...

Thanks to everyone here for being such tremendous support, and for providing me the only hope for help I have felt in years.

hunjy1 wrote:


NO!!! You are not crazy!!

I think i've heard a few times that SA meetings are for when nothing else works.

AND DO NOT TELL YOUR WIFE!!!! This has been on topic many many many a time here. But before even entertaining such a thought, you need to talk to a third person who knows your situation well enough.

The thing is, opening up does not have to be done through an SA meeting!! You can call someone from here, someone who is going through the same exact thing as you!! PM someone ask them if they can help you, just to get it out. For you to say "I have a problem"!!

Yes!!! opening up is the best way.....YOU CAN'T GO WRONG!!!

Do what you need to do, you're worth it!!!

KOT!!

Dov wrote:

My real name is Yossel
By the time I started here on GYE I was hiding things, from other & from my self,
By now I'm up to share my real name, Some credit to Dov:)

Wow hunjy1 good insides

concerning what to tell a wife the אבות דר' נתן פ"ז
אל תרבה שיחה עם האשה כיצד? בזמן שאדם בא לביהמ"ד ולא היו נוהגין בו כבוד או שערער עם חברו אל ילך ויאמר לאשתו כך וכך ערערתי עם חברי כך וכך אמר לי כך וכך אמרתי לו מפני שבוזה את עצמו וביזה את חבירו ואשתו שהיתה נוהגת בו כבוד עומדת ומשחקת עליו כיון ששמע חברו אמר אוי לי דברים שבינו לביני הלך ושחה לאשתו ונמצא אתו האיש בוזה את עצמו ואת אשתו ואת חבירו
translators please..

oh Of course! you should have a good communication with your wife but 'Pidaini' said something