what happened to what surrender means to Dov?

Dov,

I read reread and then reread your last post. I consider myself pretty intelligent, however feel like a young Padawan at the feet of a Jedi master.

You state feeling bad after the fact is not "having enough"...but that bad feeling is the regret when the wave of emotions hit as you so eloquently put it, the seaman hits the floor. Isn't that regret a realization of how far I have sunk...kind of related to I have had enough...just wish I had the (choose your word)...emotional,spiritual, physical strength to control these (pick again) desires, needs, lust...etc. No?

I hear what you are saying regarding the get back on the horse as soon as the semen monster threw us off again camp...as we have to be Bsimcha always....does seem like a cop out...you failed again...but don't be sad that you did because that's what the YH wants you to do....seems to create a never ending downward spiral. There is also the double edge sword of depression that hits...god how can I be so stupid to do it again. I am sure I am not the only one that after a "session" realize I didn't daven Maariv....is there ever a more meaningless Maariv then these?

You also seem to say guilt is good for the non addict and destructive to the addict...as well as important for the addict to know god loves him (my words) so he doesn't go over the deep end losing hope...and getting strung out. Perhaps they/we need a bit of both?

Now my question...you/others keep referencing surrender....to who...I'll wave that big white flag with my hands up high..just point me in the right direction. I think I know what you are going to respond but I am certain you will say it much better that it will have a better chance of sticking.

Sorry about the long post...will try to ramble less....

Nachshon

2. Why not use my name...just not ready to...combination of making me face the evil/sinning part of me...and know that is not some other being that used to (I really hope)post on very different websites meeting very different people...but that monster in the mirror is me. Will shatter my self image. Plus have been speaking more openly with wife..just couldn't bear to have her know this about me...she is the kindest sweetest most trusting person I know. Would be devastating for both of us

3. I just don't have that person in my contact list. My closest friends would think I am nuts to discuss stopping PN/MB...and flirting....would say its healthy and normal....great way to blow off the crazy pressure in my life...I think I come from a bit of a different back ground than most have I "met" on this site.

Day 9 is here and I feel pretty dam good! FORWARD

Nachshon wrote:


"Wish I had the ability to finally control it"...

If you are an addict, you lack the ability to control it - if you are gonna use it. So it's just Honesty to admit that I can't afford to harbor sweet desire but must instead let it go whenever I become aware of it...unlike normal Jews and other people, who can use and control it. 'Wishing' is just lying to myself that I should be able to. A serious person does not spend any time wishing that he can fly by waving his hands...he goes where he needs to go and gets upset at the traffic, that's all - and it's normal. 'Wishing' I could control it is just spiritual fantasizing and nothing more. Teshuvah does not work for addicts at all - it just falsely empowers them. We need to be more sane, not more good.

"G-d how can I be so stupid to do it again"...

That's not 'depression' at all, but just sadness or pain about the facts. And it is simply the honesty of admitting that I am, which is a mitzvah: tzedek, tzedek tirdof. If I am really an addict, then it's simple recognition of the fact that no matter how intelligent I may be in every other way (even about recovery!), I am still quite stupid when it comes to lust. Stupid is as stupid does. G-d's seal is Emess, Chazal tell us, so He likes honesty a lot! Why be sad about knowing the truth?

"is there ever a more meaningless Maariv then these?"...

Yes, there is a more meaningless ma'ariv than that: a ma'ariv we daven thinking we deserve to stand before G-d. If it takes doing something really dumb (and sinful) to help us realize we are ofor v'eifer, then that's too bad.




We don't surrender to G-d first. We surrender to the truth about ourselves first. If we are just not trying hard enough to 'beat the YH' (whatever that means), then we admit it and get the help we need to 'beat it' (the YH, that is). And if we really think we might be ill, just as alcoholics are ill, then we get help from the people who help alcoholics: often other alcoholics who are sober, be"H, or from experts (psychologists who have vast experience with sex and lust addictions counseling).

In short, the only real surrender there is, is taking real action. Sure, recovery itself only happens in the heart where no one can see - but it is only through taking real action (I wrote a vort on this idea regarding the akeidah a few weeks ago somewhere here). 'Surrender to Hashem' alone, is likely to mean just more of our familiar, sincere, BS. Holy isolation...is just more isolation. Isolated is the way we masturbate and look at porn - not the way we get better, right? Cherev el habadim as the gemorah puts it when it comes to the search for truth (talmud Torah). And guess what?

But the real deep down reason we use fake names and hide from meeting real people in recovery and opening up to them in person, is that we know that opening up to real people about our full true actions, desires and nature, would make acting out our lust a lot more difficult for us to keep doing freely. And that is terrifying. So we keep our comfortable 'anonymity'.




I just want to you to know that the overwhelming majority of people I know in sexual addiction recovery (SA meetings) are goyim. Sure, I personally know a few hundred frum yidden, but most are still gentiles. And most are not into prostitution, but 'just' out of control porn use and sex with self (masturbation). That doesn't 'answer' anything, but I think it's relevant to your last thought in some manner.

Ciao and good Shabbos!!

Dov, thank you for the in depth response. I hope others are gaining from this exchange (as much as I am)...feel free to post..

Let me start with the good news. Day 10 and 11 are in the books and it seems to be getting a bit easier each day. I took concrete action...avoided going on the internet on Saturday night (historically a bad night for me)...I usually start with catching up on work that transpired over the weekend...then taking a break at some point and ending up in a very different place.

I started thinking perhaps I am not an addict...see I just controlled it for a whopping 11 days. I think of an addict as someone unable to function (very well) in society. I have seen addicts strung out in the ER...can imagine they are respectable people in their normal lives...begging for a pill.

Than I realize how silly that is...I have been doing this for 20X years...going through my boom and bust cycles...my rock bottom is when I connect with another person (not sure how I pull myself out)...usually I look in the mirror telling myself I am better than what I have become and the cycle continues...


"I just want to you to know that the overwhelming majority of people I know in sexual addiction recovery (SA meetings) are goyim. Sure, I personally know a few hundred frum yidden, but most are still gentiles. And most are not into prostitution, but 'just' out of control porn use and sex with self (masturbation). That doesn't 'answer' anything, but I think it's relevant to your last thought in some manner."

We just read about Er and Onen being killed by god for spilling their seed...do I believe (in my soul) that is the punishment? I should. I thought a bit more about your previous statement... if I wasn't a Jew...would I be on the gentile version of GYE? Or would I consider myself a normal red blooded American that just enjoys his kink to blow off some steam...I am not sure.

You are a rare individual, chaver. So stuck into this cycle thing - yet working and getting help to stay clean one day at a time at all costs. Rare indeed, and very lucky.

Every couple of days I try and reread the whole thread so this exchange sinks in...why a few posts ago did you say the above...is that your version of "Tzadik" as a means of encouragement?

Now I have really started to ramble....

Dov thank you and the whole community for taking the time to respond to my cries for help....for the first time in a long time I see a light at the end of the tunnel...and perhaps after 120 years I will be able to look my creator in the "face" and say I fought the good fight and won? A long way from there...but am starting to feel encouraged there is a solution...

DAY 12...on the horizon....

Nachshon wrote:

When you say xyz is your rock bottom, I assume you just mean that it is the worst behavior you could possibly imagine yourself tolerating. But, you know, that changes...as the RMB"N writes in Kedoshim, "Though it is hard to imagine doing some of the things the Torah goes out of it's way to forbid - once a person does bad things, his threshold of moral (or rather, immoral) tolerance easily morphs to lows that he could not possibly imagine, etc."

So u r right - we are not out of the woods yet, by a longshot.

But I'd consider not calling anything 'my rock bottom' until at least a year or two passes and one is consistently cean. It means they finally had enough pain as a result of acting out their lust...at what turned out to now reveal itself as their real 'rock bottom'. That pain finally got them to say: "Yup, 1- I have had enough, 2- I am ready to stop and get help," and 3- they really got the help they needed. Only then do you know it was your 'rock bottom' (as I and as I think most AA's/SA's use the term).


It's all about the above lines: Have you have enough pain yet, or can you tolerate more?

For non-addicts, it is not about pain, but about sin. So the question may be: Have you sinned enough yet and does your conscience bother you enough yet? That's a fine question, normal, and a good thing for a normal person to ask, I think. But it historically does not work for addicts. Just saying.




Please ease of on the figuring out what the motive for people's encouragement is and why theu are doing things. The entire bisoness is the old game of figuring and overthinking. It's just yucky for us! I just said it because I believed it to be true and would have wanted someone to say that to me, too.

Hey Nachshon, I didn't read all your posts in depth, but I did read a couple, and skimmed some others... I'm kinda talking to myself here, but it might help you too, to realize that the feelings of guilt and depression make this thing infinitely harder. Not that we can't fight this from that place as well, we can, but it's much harder. Being b'simcha and future-focused, even when we screw up, is half the battle in my opinion.

Crashed back to earth...overwhelming sadness...just when I thought I was on the path to beating this...I will not see Day 14 on this run.

How did I let it happen? Felt like I have finally "met" someone with the answers (that's you Dov)....

Working backwards...a series of bad choices...was with another person that I have a history with...should have avoided like I have in the past 2 months...said I can still see her...why am I being so mean...I have a new found strength....had a few chances to pull out and run...sadly/embarrassingly I did not. Will dust myself off and try again.....

Regarding your last post...of have I had enough sin....that is a tough one....if there was violating Shabbat or eating kosher...would never enter my mind to sin...why this am I able to rationalize this away?

Possible answers....

1. I don't believe the sin really is that bad...seems so natural...

2. Shut my brain off and just stop thinking at the moment...overridden by YH...to think clearly....I think this is most likely the answer...plus gives me an excuse (not really me....Big Bad YH...fault) I know this is flawed....

3. Not sure...need to noodle on it more...if I really internalized this was such a horrendous sin...how can I let myself fall???

Dov, you mentioned in a previous post...life was hell before you overcame this...without getting into specifics...how...my life was never bad even in my worst days...sure I felt guilt and sadness...but that usually led me to realize (I hit my then "Rock Bottom" (Excellent point Dov))...which then pulled me out of that downward trajectory.

Regarding surrender....I am starting to understand what you said...I need to surrender further...(take action) posting anonymously is not going to do it for me...do you lead a phone conference or can you link me to a previous one (are they live?)

Sorry for the ramble...sorry for failing (mostly saying that to myself)...

Cleaning the dirt off as I try again....

Day 1 A new begining

Chazal tell us (as does our experience) that once we do someting wrong a couple of times, it doesn't seem so bad any more. Kal v'chomer once we have done it hundreds, even thousands of times.

So, guilt is not really going to motivate us any more. What does motivate us is pain. Once we reach a certain threshold of pain, we are ready for recovery.

Nachshon,

Hop back on!
Other woman/girl stuff...I know what you mean...although no two stories are the same.

What is the plan?
Are you opening up to anyone real about what's going on?

b'hatzlachah

Sorry to hear about your fall, it's the attitude "cleaning the dirt off and starting again" that counts!! Learnign from the fall and forming a plan of how you are not going to end up in the dirt again.

I personally relate very much with your second reason, brain shutting off. It is precisely for that reason that I realized the need to constantly be in contact with other fellow strugglers. That way i can tell them when my brain is shutting off, and they can help me out.

Yes, it may be YH, but then I come back to my original question, Do I want to stop? if the answer is yes, then i don't care who shuts my brain off, I don't want to fall even then, so I am doing all I can to avoid falling then, and I realize that it is ultimately up to Hashem to keep my brain from shutting down!

Thank you for the pick me ups...I needed that...

Great question...not sure what my plan is...am going to try and join Dovs conference call...next step in my surrender?

Made a huge mistake...throwing out there about how my life has not been too painful even during my downward spirals...god rained the pain on me today...guess I had it coming...does anyone else get that sense...within 24 hrs of a slip something really bad happens?

From Dovs previous post...addicts react to the pain..and sinners the guilt? Trying to figure which I am...perhaps a combination of both?

Thought about my next streak...wouldn't be honest just to count days again...need to acknowledge to myself slipped on my last one...so decided to add a letter...

Day 2B in sight...

Nachshon! You can do it!! I am rooting for you. Seeing how you are struggling is giving me strength to continue my journey.

Nachshon wrote:


Nip it in the bud, bro.

At the end of the day these girls aren't really your friends and they aren't adding anything of value to your life. Equally important, you aren't helping them any either. They have soulmates too and most likely their own issues to work out so they can have a healthier relationship of their own...

Consider treating it like a shrewd but necessary business move. Delete all contact information, make it impossible for you to find them again. Say goodbye forever.

Who cares if they are upset or hurt over it? The damaged caused by maintaining a connection is worse. It's like surgery, it'll sting for a bit but be a better decision in the long run.

My 2 cents anyway...

NACHSHON, I am sure kavanah's advice is well "intended," and it is even the truth, but I know, from being where you are, that those words might bite into you. "Get rid of her!" "break off all contact." And the worst..."She's garbage; dump her!"

I had a lot of help here and in the other real world to do just that.

My scorecard as of now...
60 days
then 115 days (really about 100, and went on a three week slide)
Now, im at 49...and counting B"H.

b'hatzlachah

cordnoy wrote:


Hehehe... I see what you did there... nice one! :D