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TOPIC: The 18 Wheeler 839 Views
Re: The 18 Wheeler 16 Jun 2025 13:48 #437443
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iwillmanage wrote on 15 Jun 2025 21:16:
I doubt Dov would give his haskomo to that, shame he isn't around these parts any more to respond. Either way I beg to differ. Powerless over lust means powerless over lust. Same goes with our lives. And there's absolutely nothing intellectual about it; if you're trying to understand the 'concept' or see if it fits with your hashkofo and worldview, you've taken it wrong. We're talking in the most practical way possible. We've been through all the philosophy and intellectual stuff more times then we can count, we're convinced that there's bechiro, if there's a nisoyon we must have the ability to overcome it etc etc, intellectually we're sure we weren't created doomed to sin, but none of that changed the facts an iota, this lust thing had beaten us. With all the tools and advice and therapy and GYE and thinking we had done and that we could dream of, practically we were hopelessly helpless when it came to lust. As long as we could manage our lives together with our lust, 'powerlessness' made no sense to us, after all it didn't seem 'intellectually correct'. But the minute the consequences started to overtake us, being intellectually correct wasn't going to help us. We simply didn't have the power to pull ourselves out of the pit. On the most simple and practical level, we had to admit we were powerless over lust and our lives had become unmanageable. When I joined SA I was also bothered by your points on an intellectual level, but I had to put that aside, leave it as a question.The fact was I had a deep awareness that I couldn't manage this thing, I'd always end up going back out there. (You also start your post with this realization, but then get all caught up with the intellectual.) So I started doing what others had done and stop trying to manage it myself, give up the 'iwillmanage' attitude and instead turn it over to a Power that can manage my life and keep me sober. When I turn to Him with sincere humility, giving up my self-will and my desire to be the one in charge, turn to others with honesty, relinquishing my desire to give off a false self image, and look to be of service to others and stop living a selfish, self-absorbed, self-centred, self, self, self type of life, I find that I do have the power to stop. I don't think any of that's a cop out at all. And who knows, maybe that's the answer to the 'intellectual problem'. Maybe I really do have the power, if I live life the way He meant me to, rooted in the reality of being a creation, and thereby a servant, of God, created to do my part whilst being fully conscious that I'm just a part of a vast interconnected existence of which I'm in no way the centre and which doesn't revolve around me. Today I understand that I'm powerless only in as much as I'm living a selfish life, disconnected from God and others, if I let all end in myself, if I take not in order to give. It's also true that I may be powerless over lust, but I'm responsible for the first drink. Once sober, if I decide to take a drink of lust, that’s on me. It's my responsibility to stay involved in sobriety and follow my sponsor’s suggestions. It is my responsibility to cultivate and grow willingness. I can’t cop out behind a smokescreen of powerlessness. It's turning into too much of a ramble. Maybe that's what happens when I try standing in for Dov  (Agav, I don't think it's possible to get a true idea of what the program is about from the experience of just one member, even someone with a sobriety as strong as Dov's. The best way to truly get it is to do it). I am in close contact with a 12-Step old-timer who has 40 years of sobriety (not Harvey) and has a very different derech than Dov. I have discussed many of Dov's points with him and showed him things written by Dov and he strongly (but politely) disagrees. I also have listened to a great many of talks from SA old-timers (both frum and non-jewish) and they have all different ways of going about recovery. Some of them completely disagree on some very basic points within SA. There are many legitimate pathways within recovery and Dov's mehalech will work for some and will probably destroy others. Each person will end up following whatever path works for him as long as it's a legitimate one and with a sponsor. There is nowhere in 12-step literature which tells us that we must become intellectual boors (I'm not saying Dov says to either I'm just trying to make a point). Some people may have to completely let go of their intellect in order to recover but that is determined on a case by case basis. That being said, part of the point of this thread is to get a variety of points of view within 12-Stepers and I definitely appreciate the feedback. Healthy disagreement is good, as people will take whatever ends up working for them. Please keep posting whenever you disagree with anything posted here (which will probably be more & more often as we get further into this thread.) 
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Re: The 18 Wheeler 17 Jun 2025 03:04 #437484
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iwillmanage wrote on 15 Jun 2025 21:16:
chosemyshem wrote on 12 Jun 2025 15:02: azivashacheit101 wrote on 12 Jun 2025 14:11: Here is the fourth of the 18 Wheeler: 4. Admit powerlessness. At the very beginning, all I could do when the compulsion struck was cry out, "I'm powerless; please help me!" Sometimes a hundred times a day. Powerlessness was the most beautiful word in the world to me then as I was coming to experience the First Step at depth. It still is. Later I would discover that I was really powerless over me. The more I had fought lust before, the more it fought back; all my willpower seemed to empower lust rather than hold it in check. Reading Step One in the Twelve and Twelve helped me see that my powerlessness was the "firm bedrock upon which happy and purposeful lives may be built" (p. 21) I finally stopped trying to stop. Only by admiting lust's power over me to others in the fellowship could I receive power over my lust. Interested in hearing where this goes. As an outsider to SA, I always thought the powerlessness thing made sense. Clearly, I have zero self control. My struggles with porn have taught me that well. And so but while I acknowledged that emotionally, it wasn't something I could accept intellectually. And it struck me that my emotional acknowledgment that I cannot control myself didn't seem very healthy. The way I've come to understand this, entirely through Dov's lectures, writings, and phone conference, is that it's ridiculous to say we are completely powerless over ourselves. That's a cop-out. He explained we are powerless over life. Life is always going to have it's things that rub us the wrong way. As addicts, our response is lust, but it's not lust we are powerless over, it's life. And this of course makes perfect sense, since it's a tenet of our faith that G-d is in absolute control of our lives and everything that happens to us is precisely calculated and for the good. So the solution is to learn how to surrender your life to G-d's will - as made manifest by, well, your life. To stop being fearful and resentful, and to accept G-d's will with joy (to do his will as our own is not a christian idea, it's a mishna). We also cannot control lust. That is to say, we cannot use it in measured amounts. We can't watch five minutes of porn and then walk away and forget about it like others can do. But the ikkar is the powerlessness over life, not lust. Does that make sense? Isn't that radically different than saying we are powerless over ourselves/lust? I doubt Dov would give his haskomo to that, shame he isn't around these parts any more to respond. Either way I beg to differ. Powerless over lust means powerless over lust. Same goes with our lives. And there's absolutely nothing intellectual about it; if you're trying to understand the 'concept' or see if it fits with your hashkofo and worldview, you've taken it wrong. We're talking in the most practical way possible. We've been through all the philosophy and intellectual stuff more times then we can count, we're convinced that there's bechiro, if there's a nisoyon we must have the ability to overcome it etc etc, intellectually we're sure we weren't created doomed to sin, but none of that changed the facts an iota, this lust thing had beaten us. With all the tools and advice and therapy and GYE and thinking we had done and that we could dream of, practically we were hopelessly helpless when it came to lust. As long as we could manage our lives together with our lust, 'powerlessness' made no sense to us, after all it didn't seem 'intellectually correct'. But the minute the consequences started to overtake us, being intellectually correct wasn't going to help us. We simply didn't have the power to pull ourselves out of the pit. On the most simple and practical level, we had to admit we were powerless over lust and our lives had become unmanageable. When I joined SA I was also bothered by your points on an intellectual level, but I had to put that aside, leave it as a question.The fact was I had a deep awareness that I couldn't manage this thing, I'd always end up going back out there. (You also start your post with this realization, but then get all caught up with the intellectual.) So I started doing what others had done and stop trying to manage it myself, give up the 'iwillmanage' attitude and instead turn it over to a Power that can manage my life and keep me sober. When I turn to Him with sincere humility, giving up my self-will and my desire to be the one in charge, turn to others with honesty, relinquishing my desire to give off a false self image, and look to be of service to others and stop living a selfish, self-absorbed, self-centred, self, self, self type of life, I find that I do have the power to stop. I don't think any of that's a cop out at all. And who knows, maybe that's the answer to the 'intellectual problem'. Maybe I really do have the power, if I live life the way He meant me to, rooted in the reality of being a creation, and thereby a servant, of God, created to do my part whilst being fully conscious that I'm just a part of a vast interconnected existence of which I'm in no way the centre and which doesn't revolve around me. Today I understand that I'm powerless only in as much as I'm living a selfish life, disconnected from God and others, if I let all end in myself, if I take not in order to give. It's also true that I may be powerless over lust, but I'm responsible for the first drink. Once sober, if I decide to take a drink of lust, that’s on me. It's my responsibility to stay involved in sobriety and follow my sponsor’s suggestions. It is my responsibility to cultivate and grow willingness. I can’t cop out behind a smokescreen of powerlessness. It's turning into too much of a ramble. Maybe that's what happens when I try standing in for Dov (Agav, I don't think it's possible to get a true idea of what the program is about from the experience of just one member, even someone with a sobriety as strong as Dov's. The best way to truly get it is to do it). Hmmmm.Verythoughtprovoking. |
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