I doubt Dov would give his haskomo to that, shame he isn't around these parts any more to respond. Either way I beg to differ. Powerless over lust means powerless over lust. Same goes with our lives. And there's absolutely nothing intellectual about it; if you're trying to understand the 'concept' or see if it fits with your hashkofo and worldview, you've taken it wrong. We're talking in the most practical way possible. We've been through all the philosophy and intellectual stuff more times then we can count, we're convinced that there's bechiro, if there's a nisoyon we must have the ability to overcome it etc etc, intellectually we're sure we weren't created doomed to sin, but none of that changed the facts an iota, this lust thing had beaten us. With all the tools and advice and therapy and GYE and thinking we had done and that we could dream of, practically we were hopelessly helpless when it came to lust. As long as we could manage our lives together with our lust, 'powerlessness' made no sense to us, after all it didn't seem 'intellectually correct'. But the minute the consequences started to overtake us, being intellectually correct wasn't going to help us. We simply didn't have the power to pull ourselves out of the pit. On the most simple and practical level, we had to admit we were powerless over lust and our lives had become unmanageable.

When I joined SA I was also bothered by your points on an intellectual level, but I had to put that aside, leave it as a question.The fact was I had a deep awareness that I couldn't manage this thing, I'd always end up going back out there. (You also start your post with this realization, but then get all caught up with the intellectual.) So I started doing what others had done and stop trying to manage it myself, give up the 'iwillmanage' attitude and instead turn it over to a Power that can manage my life and keep me sober. When I turn to Him with sincere humility, giving up my self-will and my desire to be the one in charge, turn to others with honesty, relinquishing my desire to give off a false self image, and look to be of service to others and stop living a selfish, self-absorbed, self-centred, self, self, self type of life, I find that I do have the power to stop. I don't think any of that's a cop out at all.

And who knows, maybe that's the answer to the 'intellectual problem'. Maybe I really do have the power, if I live life the way He meant me to, rooted in the reality of being a creation, and thereby a servant, of God, created to do my part whilst being fully conscious that I'm just a part of a vast interconnected existence of which I'm in no way the centre and which doesn't revolve around me. Today I understand that I'm powerless only in as much as I'm living a selfish life, disconnected from God and others, if I let all end in myself, if I take not in order to give.

It's also true that I may be powerless over lust, but I'm responsible for the first drink. Once sober, if I decide to take a drink of lust, that’s on me. It's my responsibility to stay involved in sobriety and follow my sponsor’s suggestions. It is my responsibility to cultivate and grow willingness. I can’t cop out behind a smokescreen of powerlessness.

It's turning into too much of a ramble. Maybe that's what happens when I try standing in for Dov 

(Agav, I don't think it's possible to get a true idea of what the program is about from the experience of just one member, even someone with a sobriety as strong as Dov's. The best way to truly get it is to do it).