youknowwho wrote on 16 Jan 2025 22:08:

I mean, if we're being mdakdek to go with straight halacha you should be acting as if you were possessed by a demon and not enjoying any beauty and femininity at all.

On second thought, I have no idea what goes on in the YouKnowWho bedroom, but strongly suspect there's alot of pretending to be possessed by demons. 

chosemyshem wrote on 16 Jan 2025 22:44:

That’s actually not the Pshat at all, according to many Meforshim. Some Meforshim explain that he acted as if a demon possessed him in his intensity so as not to entertain thoughts of other women. Others said he did it fast, doesn’t mean that he didn’t enjoy the beauty and femininity. (Other people admit that they have a hard time knowing what it means, if you’re supposed to be making your wife feel good…, so maybe it’s a Shvereh Chazal that needs more work) 

Here’s a more important point- A hanhaga that brought is Shulchan Aruch is NOT necessarily “straight Halacha”. It can also be a Hanhaga of Midas Chassidus that’s been included for us to know about, (if we can figure out what it means), and perhaps aspire to, for those of us for whom it’s applicable. 

For another example, the Mechabeir in Siman 156 says that everyone should go to work every day. He also writes that when you work, you should make your Melocha Aray and Your Torah Kiva. Even though this is mefurash in Shulchan Aruch I haven’t seen people obsess about the fact that they are not being Mikayeim this “strict Halacha” that clearly stated in Shulchan Aruch…. 

People need to get a proper sense of the hierarchy of what Hanhaga that is cited in Seforim is actually talking to them and what is not. And what is a Din and what is an Inyan and what is a Madreiga. There’s a BIG difference. 

I’m not suggesting that a person should randomly pick and choose. I’m suggesting listening to good people who can guide you.

chosemyshem wrote on 16 Jan 2025 22:44:

FAKE news.
statements like this is what made me go OTD and triggers us all, to hate judaism and love Porn.

please see ראב"ד and מנורת המאור that explain it to mean do it לשם מצוה not לשם your penis, but of course ENJOY ect,
its just like eating on shabbat לכבוד שבת קודש
is this so hard to understand??
if this is not good enough for you look @ the הגהות יעב"ץ on that גמ' (some gemaros censored it out)
if thats not good enough
Damn it!

I wish that instead of this being debated on the forum, we could have a conference call to discuss this. There is so much to say on this topic, and everyone here has made extremely valid points. And as usual when dealing with the written word, so much of some people's writings end up being misunderstood.  I firmly believe and have witnessed time and again, that when guys use and enjoy the bedroom properly, they are healed from pornography's seeming inexorable pull and attraction.  As yidden, one of our jobs in this world is to uplift all inyanei gashmius. (see Shem MiShmuel Parshas Balak - V'agarshenu min ha'aretz for a beautiful presentation of this). When an individual learns how to apply that concept to this very physical inyan - even to the very small degree that guys like us are able to do - much of what is being discussed here simply falls into place.

Hashem Help Me wrote on 17 Jan 2025 04:31:

Bolded the most important line, I think. 
Wish you’d set up such a conference call, please. 

There’s a critical issue that keeps coming up. There are people who have been taught or somehow got the impression that according to Halcha or Chassidus, they’re not supposed to enjoy the bedroom, even focussing on intimacy etc, or at very least it’s unholy and lowly.

And the situation that develops from that leads them down the wrong path. Becuase the only way of finding “enjoyment” that they discover is through improper channels, and they feel guilty and wrong about it all anyways, and if any enjoyment is lowly and unclean then hey…

Some education with positivity about how its good, healthy, right, and fine to enjoy bedroom life with your wife (in the right context) can change so much….

Hashem Help Me wrote on 17 Jan 2025 04:31:

i would like to add
even guys that are not married they need to know that jewish marriage is IS ENJOYABLE ect.... and its worth to hold out and not mess it up
it helps alot with the strugggle
if there under the impression that jewish marriage sucks not enjoyable not fun
they throw in the towel, and try to get in as much enjoyment as possible
before they get stuck in a sexless boring, no looking, no touching non enjoying marriage.

Day 75 ב"ה

To be entirely honest I actually thought I was saying something obvious and self evident. I see many see it quite differently. 

Addressing cande's post I will say that I feel that intimacy for me has improved exponentially and is way more enjoyable when I focus on the pnimius of the connection. I'm not sure whether that's something that could be conveyed to non married guys who are excitedly waiting to try out all the lessons they've learnt on the internet, but the fact is that sex in the dark with a focus on connection is a million times more satisfying.

simchastorah wrote on 17 Jan 2025 06:57:

Can we say “עליו השלום” on a living dude?

simchastorah wrote on 17 Jan 2025 07:06:

 HHM - I actually tell single guys that i speak with that i enjoy sex immensely - it's just NOT the sex they've been brainwashed with online.
and explain them what it  is
נ"ב
and no,  dont tell them sex is is the Pitch-black spooky house.


cande'

cande wrote on 17 Jan 2025 12:24:

Ok I'll keep the spooky aspect a secret

cande wrote on 17 Jan 2025 12:24:

The above quote "I actually tell single guys that i speak with that i enjoy sex immensely - it's just NOT the sex they've been brainwashed with online." is something i have shared with many people. Could be that Cande thought of it as well. However i do not see what is wrong with telling them that keeping to halachic standards does not mean prishus, and does not make it unenjoyable. The guys have to realize that they have been brainwashed and conditioned that erotic sex is a fulfilling pleasurable activity which it most definitely is not in comparison with the real thing. It's like a guy refusing to give up his Laffy Taffy when offered a mouthwatering steak. They should trust their chosson rebbis, mentors etc, and try to do it the way it is meant to be done, and they will b'ezras Hashem taste an incomparable pleasure - as will their wife. Regarding the actual issue of it being done in the dark and during the night, that is the way it was successfully and enjoyably done for generations. That being said, if these guidelines pose a challenge, there are halachically permitted eitzos that rabbonim give to make the specific couple more comfortable. Every guy should have a family rav who is experienced in these matters to advise him. 

simchastorah wrote on 17 Jan 2025 12:36:

keep secret also the 
PITCH- no were does it say needs to be מכת חושך (see all the poskim there)
and the
BLACK - no were does it say dark it says DAY or אור הנר
וק"ל

thats why your whole שטיקל with seeing is whatever......

love you
cande'

.

chaimoigen wrote on 17 Jan 2025 05:01:

I second the motion for a conference call. I'm sure the GYE hanhala would be happy to host. Can we please make this happen?

@CO Hilchos talmud torah are the scariest halachos in shulchan aruch. I don't obsess over not being mkayem them because I'd end up curled up in a ball in the floor. I don't obsess over not being mkayem kufui sheid because it's not remotely on my radar.