I want to share a thought that I find very powerful which I recently shared with someone here in the chat and realized I had never shared here.

According to halacha we are required to be in darkness when we engage in intimacy. This tells us that the true nature of the intimate act can not be perceived using the sense of sight. If we are seeing it, we are seeing a lie. Only when we're not seeing it can we possibly perceive it correctly.

So those of us who have spent time gazing at images of this act have taught ourselves to relate to it in a way which is by definition misguided. This is in addition to the well known lies of porn - the fact that she'll never be that excited to please, there's no real physical intimacy without emotional intimacy, your wife probably won't look like that etc. In addition to all that, the very fact that you are seeing it at all means you're seeing a lie. Because the truth of intimacy is obscured by the very sight of it.

simchastorah wrote on 16 Jan 2025 05:16:

Can I get in on the action?
 Something like בנין עדי עד?

As long as you dont say עד שקר העד...

simchastorah wrote on 16 Jan 2025 14:17:

Tbh, my first thought was along the lines of ״… עד בלי די״, but I don’t think we want you saying “Enough of this stuff!”.

simchastorah wrote on 16 Jan 2025 11:40:

That's a deep idea. Need to let that digest a little. 

My initial reaction though is I'd need a source for the idea that intimacy is something that can't be seen. I believe the gemara's reason given is that you may see something unattractive with her and transgress v'ahavta l'reiacha komocha. Which still tells us that seeing intimacy will always have the possibility of seeing something imperfect and being disgusted, but experiencing/feeling intimacy does not have that possibility. I think (though it's possible they just limited the danger as much as they could without shterring the intimacy).

Tzarich iyun.

chosemyshem wrote on 16 Jan 2025 15:03:

You make a valid point. I can't bring a perfect mkor for it, it's more "what I hear" in the halacha if you know what I mean.

However שלא תתגנה עליו is not the only טעם. The גמ also says that ביום is a lack of kedusha. Why? Why not do it with the lights on full of holy thoughts?

Also סוף סוף whatever the טעם chazal revealed to us that the ratzon Hashem is that it should be done in the dark. If we take as a הנחה פשוטה that the experience of sight is significantly different, and not just in the fact that you are less inclined to see גנאי, we have to ask ourselves, why does this experience have to be in the dark? כנלע"ד but I can't say it's מוכח.

Interesting discussion points.

Then why not during the day but in a dark room? (not paskening any halachos) 
Seems there is more to it than just seeing. An aspect of tznius, me thinks, regarding the setting - not just the seeing.

Kol Tov

BenHashemBH wrote on 16 Jan 2025 16:47:

During the day in a dark room is indeed mutar

simchastorah wrote on 16 Jan 2025 16:49:

Although you may be right, since this is a public space and anyone can be reading this discussion, I find it important to point out that although "During the day" may be permitted, it is definitely not recommended. So if you find your self in a situation that you feel would require doing it by day, the proper thing to do, would be to talk to your LOR.      

Why is during the day definitely not recommended? Other than in a bright room ע"י האפלת טלית

Sure hope I didnt start a controversy over here. Very not interested in that.

simchastorah wrote on 16 Jan 2025 17:29:

Sorry dude, you open a door you shut it

I can not give you sources, as I do not know them, what I can share is first hand experience. 
I was told by a very prominent member of the GYE community, who has helped hundreds of individuals, to ask a Rav regarding this very topic. 
I spoke to my Rav, and did not get a clean off the bat yes, we discussed the issue we where having at length and only after that did he advise us on the proper way and conditions. 
Again, I'm not saying it's flat out prohibited, just like the rest of the physical intimacy parsha in halacha, there are lots of different nuances, customs and traditions. 

P.S. I believe that this is addressed in Kabablah and other Torah works, if some one out there knows of them please be so kind and share them!        

Though I do know the sources I don’t want to share them here. Just want people to know that there are circumstances and ways in which it’s not advised or even assur, and circumstances and ways in which it’s permitted, so speak to someone who knows, who knows you.

But I think it’s CRITICAL to mention that it’s can be a terrible mistake to avoid doing something “Bediyeved” in a situation where avoiding that can or will lead to other problems and worse.

A person has to know when a course of action that’s generally “Bediyeved” is actually 100 percent called for and proper for him in his situation.

The practical take-away is that you need to discuss ALL ASPECTS of the situation when you ask a Rav

I certainly can't say what it says about it in kabbala, and you are right that it's not recommended (though the shulchan aruch doesnt mention any lack of recommendation about it so I feel comfortable saying it's mutar). 

Anyway my original point mistama has been lost in all this back and forth about a point that had no real relevance. And as usual, I regret sharing anything more than a ב"ה on GYE.