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TOPIC: Shh 2367 Views

Shh 28 Feb 2016 01:58 #279480

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Does anyone know how come Litvishe yeshivos don't stress and talk about these issues? 
It seems chassidim talk about them and while I grew up Litvishe I don't think this issue was addressed and was sort of something that was not spoken about. Can anyone relate?

Re: Shh 28 Feb 2016 03:37 #279488

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Yes and No.

I've seen (and attended) Litvishe Yeshivas that were very "hush hush" about it, while others were very open about it. In defense of those that hushed it up (I don't think I need to defend those that spoke about it. I think everyone here can attest that there's a need for it ), I think that a lot of places:

a: don't realize how prevalent of an issue it is (and frankly, for all I know they may be right. I don't personally know anyone else with the same problem as me. Even counting all the users on this forum, that's maybe a couple hundred ranging throughout all ages and locations),

b: are worried that speaking about something as delicate as this openly might cause others who would otherwise not have had this challenge struggle with it
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c: feel that since most people enrolled in Yeshivos are adolescents/going through puberty, the belief among the powers that be is that this is something that people will for the most part "grow out of" or learn to deal with naturally as they grow older. This might also be compounded by the idea that (like b: above) since most Yeshivas are segregated and not expected to interact with the other gender (or more accurately, expected not to interact with the other gender), the Yeshiva doesn't need to deal with the issue (but with the advent of the internet, this isn't as true as it used to be)

Re: Shh 28 Feb 2016 03:52 #279492

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Welcome!!!!

Please tell me which Chassidishe yeshiva talks about the things GYE talks about - I may consider to send my son there
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Re: Shh 28 Feb 2016 04:41 #279500

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There are some great children's books written for our community which deal with personal safety, and incorporated in the text are some pages which deal with euphemistic molestation. Perhaps the community would benefit from a similar book that deals with health, and physical stimulation could possibly be included.

Bottom line, had I known at age thirteen that what I considered a private act, similar to (excuse me) flatulating  or picking one's nose, is in fact a capital crime, my life would perhaps had taken a different path.

Ideally, one supposes, this chinuch would come from the parents, but I can't see myself having this conversation with my children. At what age of the child would I broach the topic?
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Re: Shh 28 Feb 2016 10:13 #279518

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I went to a litvish yeshiva and these issues were definitely talked about. I am currently in another institution and the menahel said straight out on the first day, "You can come to me if you're having problems with your computer, every yeshiva guy is addicted to porn, and kollel". I also know that in the more left-wing/modern orthodox places the issues are talked about. Although yeish ladon if stam talking helps. In my experience I only talked about it with rebbeim was when I was completely desperate. If I felt more safe about talking about it then maybe I would've earlier, not that I am blaming anybody. The issue needs to be presented in a non-judgemental, loving way. I could see one-on-one talks with every bochur being really helpful. As many of us know here, this problem does not discriminate, the best bochurim can be watching porn all night.
If you're an LGBTQ or LGBTQ-questioning person and looking for someone who can understand you, feel free to reach out. I promise no judgement and to try and listen the best I can. 

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Re: Shh 28 Feb 2016 11:27 #279524

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I actually heard about these things somewhat from my tenth grade rebbe in a regular litvish yeshiva, although not on the scope of GYE, it didnt stop me because i was too embarresed to go to him for help.
Years later... too late!
Im not sure which part would help for the rabbeim to discuss?
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Re: Shh 28 Feb 2016 18:47 #279549

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My rebbi was able to set me up with a therapist, I don't know if you need one but that could be an option. Also, in general, I have found that it feels very good to get things off my chest to a real-live person. Another positive aspect I have found is that usually I have found my relationship with the rebbi was strengthened.
If you're an LGBTQ or LGBTQ-questioning person and looking for someone who can understand you, feel free to reach out. I promise no judgement and to try and listen the best I can. 

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Re: Shh 29 Feb 2016 02:20 #279594

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I read the Chafetz Chaim had a speech with his son when he was a young bachur and told him to keep this speech in mind because they won't be having it again. It seems B'BAD WORD REMOVEDa some litvishe yeshivos did not speak about these things. These days maybe they do I am almost a decade out of yeshiva.

Markz:
Chassidishe yeshivivos go to the mikvah every morning and speak about kedusha etc.

Re: Shh 29 Feb 2016 02:27 #279596

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Ok, my friend - (I never attended hardcore chassidishe yeshives).
does this bother you that litvishe yeshivas are mum about mast??

i was a very curious kid (it's still in me:-)) - Some kids that don't know about porn may get turned on by the revelation of the topic, which kids know not to publicize

A Rebbi may give over the topic incorrectly - If I wouldv'e heard "all guys do porn" as Shlomos Rebbi said, I may have sunk down to the pits of the P* tube and never recovered - why should I have joined gye if I thought all religious guys porn?

One of the most common statements of newcomers is "I thought I was the only one...", so either teach kids about the laws of shemiras habris the right way, or not at all

However, Shlomo may be talking about a different age group, whereas shemiras habris should be taught age 13-14
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Last Edit: 29 Feb 2016 02:51 by Markz.

Re: Shh 29 Feb 2016 04:12 #279603

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Markz

I was not bothered that litvishe yeshivos don't talk about it. Like the story with the Chafetz Chaim I was curious as to why it is not supposed to be spoken about more than the bare minimum. 

Re: Shh 29 Feb 2016 04:32 #279605

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I learned in a heimesh/yeshivish yeshiva and I never heard about anything more than the standard "our generation has a big nisoyan of shmiras einayim"
but then again I was one of the more naïve guys back then....the rebbeim were people who did have relationships with their talmidim (although i never had any sort of relationship with any rebbi) so could be they did deal with the bochorim who they felt needed help.
but it definitely was not a open topic.
Last Edit: 29 Feb 2016 04:33 by goodchange613.

Re: Shh 29 Feb 2016 04:55 #279608

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It is too late to do this in high school. This has to be addressed pre-puberty, before the nisayon crops up. Elementary schools would have to do this *if* it has to be done in the educational system int he first place. I believe the onus is on the parents to make clear to the child that certain things are off limits.

Maybe "Hashem doesn't like if we touch this part of the body unless we are taking a bath or cleaning ourselves" or something to that effect.

1) Schools would never do it at that age because there are bound to be some parents who will raise the roof about this type of education at that tender age. Then they start with Kol Korays and Rbbanim and Machlokes. This can not happen in an elementary school at this time.
2) I wouldn't trust the school system to do the job even if they were willing. It needs a certain degree of wisdom, restraint and finesse and I would estimate the number of mechanchim able to do that at 20%
3) We can't abdicate our responsibility to our children to the schools when we are dealing with these life and death (who knows more than we) issues.
4) If someone were to come out with a children's book on this topic, which the parent could read to the child, that would solve a great deal of the problem. As I posted somewhere on these  boards, there is a book which deals with Safety, and it incorporates resisting molesters within amny other safety issues (look both ways when you cross the street, etc). The same could be done with this: Moishy's day: incorporate into his day when he gets dressed he is careful not to touch, then eats breakfast, goes to school, yada yada yada, comes home, does his homework, takes a bath careful not to touch  so that the child does not realize that the book has an agenda
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Last Edit: 29 Feb 2016 05:04 by happy guy. Reason: clarify

Re: Shh 29 Feb 2016 05:16 #279612

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let me preface that I have no experience in chinuch and my oldest child is 2.

in my opinion while its definitely a good idea that young children should have some sort of conception of private parts etc and resisting molesters I'm not sure if that would help for a teen who once he hits puberty starts experiencing the power of the sex drive.

I do feel that every bochor should be aware to some extent of shmiras habris etc. besides for shmiras einayim. I say that based on personal experience because I never was told about it at all, and while somehow b'h I made it clean through all my teen years I eventually fell after I was married and I knew very little about the subject.

So as to what the right thing is to do? I feel that besides for more general education it is something that doesn't have a one right answer but rather is something that is "chanoch lenaar al pi darco" if a parent or a rebbi feels that a teen can benefit there shouldn't be a issue with them sitting down and discussing it in a open clear way, exactly what should be said I'm not sure, but it definitely should not be something that is just swept under the rug and leaves the bochur thinking that he is the only one with these struggles and thinks that he is a pervert.

Re: Shh 29 Feb 2016 05:22 #279613

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Yes, I don't disagree with you. I am just advocating that children be informed that touching their private parts is not kosher. If he has that knowledge, he is forewarned for when the sex drives slams him.



Would that create Maizidim over Shogagim? THat's another question.

 
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Re: Shh 29 Feb 2016 05:28 #279617

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first of all as someone pointed out there is already a book on that.
the problem is that the kid is only told "don't do that" without any explanation so it becomes just another one of the dozens of things that parents tell their kids not to do.

as to the maizidim over shogagim, as I said it's a fine line to walk and your right in that many mechanchim and parents may not be equipped to deal with it, but I do believe that education is better that blind commands and because the allure of porn and the pleasure of masturbation is just too powerful.
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