1. You don't need to masturbate to go to sleep.

2. Powerlessness does not absolve me from responsibility and it doesn't mean I didn't have a choice. Masturbation is a choice chaver.

Thanks you are 1000% correct on both pointers. And as I have said all along Powerlessness does not absolve me. And I must fight this battle.

Can you kindly explain though how if I am powerless, how can I stll have a choice? I just don't get the two?

Also yes of course I "don't need to masturbate to go to sleep" No human does. but what should I physcially tell my yetzer tonite when he makes me twist & turn for an hour because the addict is missing his lust dose? Of course it starts with talikng to him before I get to bed too.

As a side note, yes we all have differnet twists of lust addictions. Some can go days with nothing but when the pressure ticks up they must let out their lust. However I am differnet. I have almost never gone to sleep in the past 18 yrs without it. And when I wake up in middle of the nite I fall back asleep again by submitting to my lust. (yes I can do it 3 times a nite. Sounds crazy even for an addict. Most addicts I meet don't have it this bad. Yes I am ill.) Some find this hard to believe but its true. My masterbation dose is what put me to sleep for the past 18 yrs. Some at least held back shana rishona. But not me. Its so imparceled in my body. The past two days I have been free but what a struggle it has been. This mornining I woke up a bit early and wanted to turn over for a few minutes (as I still had time to rest before my minyan) My yetzer didn't want to let me fall back asleep without my dose. Eventually rather than giving in to my yetzer, I said the heck with it just get up early and forgo the little extra half hr of rest. I am proud that I won. But its such an addiction how do I overcome this day in & day out? What do I do while I am twisting and turning?

Oh Cordnoy, this author of the white book is so on target,so far he is very down to earth. I also often get lossed by physcology jargon. But he seems so far nice and easy to follow! I am up to pg 37. And you would think vois vist a goy? But chachma bgoyim taman!

Thanks for the hook up

waydown

Waydown

Hello there. If we haven't reached the budget yet, here is my two cents. First of all those two quotes above seem to be from different people. The second one seems eager and willing to hear from people who have banded together to work on this common issue, and have figured out some positive pathways. Of course, there is no easy or quick path, but it's GREAT that you have started and was clean for TWO WHOLE NIGHTS! 18 years can really drill a habit into the brain, and it will take time to get that out.
I have heard a quote that I've been wondering about, and perhaps someone who has experience in the 12 steps can help with this. If the first step is admitting that we are powerless, how is that helpful? If we are powerless then why don't we just say that it's not our fault. Yes we got ourselves into the mess to begin with, but if today we are powerless, then what is step 2-12 all about. This is really confusing to me, and a thorough answer would be very appreciated.
SG

P.S. No one liner's please. I think this topic needs a detailed explanation. ( (unless of course, you feel like it.

The way I understand the powerless concept is two fold

1) Once the tavia hits us and we allow it take over our body we become powerless. So not to be graphic but once I am laying in bed and I allow my mind to wonder to the point where the intial steps of masterbation is happening. I am begining to get the enjoyment (the throbbing began) we are powerless. Its nearly impossible at that point not to fully act out. of course we can physically yell fire get up and and run out of the house in middle of the nite. That should stop the itch. But in reality we are not going to do that. Basiclly once we step into the lions den we are powerless.

2) Another pointer of powerlesness is that without concret steps we cabn't succeed. So if we just rationalize as I have for years, that one day maybe next ellul (or if its elul let me just push it off till 10 days of teshuva) I can just wake up and decide hey I'll fix it then easily. so we rationalize that I can just stop whenever I want but let me have the enjoyment meanwhile. With that altitude we are powerless and will never stop. Because we will rationilize our action every time.

So what does the knoweldge of powerlessness do? it tell us that we are not in control of our actions. Rather we have power to take control of our altitude that brings us to commit the action. It starts way before we step into the lions den.We have to have a plan how to fight the war and contain the enemy (We will never win this yetzer totally. He is like the muslims. You kill out Al-Qeda and in comes Isis. They never go away.) But awareness that its a war and we must put on our soilder uniforms is a start.

How this all helps me in the bedroom? I am clueless. i still have not found a solution as to what to when I am twisting and turning tonite. And I still don't get the selfish thing that I have been pondering all day. How is something out of our control called selfish. Unless selfish means simply serving onself whether he can control it or not. But thats not how I understand the meaning of selfish.

Circling to my main point what do I do when twisting and turning tonite?

So now what does that knowledge of powerlessness do for us?

waydown wrote:


I don't know if your explanation of powerless is correct or not, but if it is, your point # 1 and 2 answer your supposed setirah between powerlessness and selfishness, and guess what? it's written in your language!

waydown wrote:


waydown wrote:


The response I quoted above was from page 51/52 in the white book, so another few twists and turns, and you'll be right there.

I am totally not gonna get into this deep topic. one thing my short life has taught me ( & keeps reminding me again and again and agian) is that i cant think my way out of things. anyway as a practical eitza try some melatonin over the counter natural & relatively cheap, helps me relax and fall asleep without acting out GOOD LUCK!

Hi waydown! I also have ADD, so I can also relate to your
Hey! Did you see the Yankee game last night? It was awesome!

Where was I? Oh yeah, I wanted to share my own experience- having joined GYE a year ago. If someone would've told me a year ago that I was either selfish, arrogant, or responsible for my wife's pain, I would've fought them like a fish on a hook. In fact, I did! The biggest (worst, most painful, longest lasting) fights that I've had with my wife were all of that genre. (I interpreted everything she said as "your fault, bad guy," as if I chose to hurt her, and I knew 1000% that that was NOT me!)

For some reason I have a strong need to be a "good guy". And I am! (I think) (most of the time) If someone would suggest otherwise, I'd reject it out of hand- it's impossible! I'm the nicest guy around! I do ABC all the time, and that's why everybody likes me...

If you're anything like me, then you're probably feeling blamed when someone mentions that you might be selfish, as if you're intentionally hurting someone else without regard for them. (Even though that's not what anyone is saying)

I would recommend that you don't focus on the "selfish" thing at all right now. It's just triggering you in a non productive way, and distracting you from doing what you need to do.

Focus on staying clean. Just for today. I understand from your posts that it is a tremendous struggle. You are doing a commendable job by trying to stop.

Once you've disconnected the lust IV from your system you can revisit the "selfish or not" issue. You might have a different perspective then. Maybe. Perhaps. Just puttin' it out there.

Wishing you much Hatzlacha

Cordnoy,

My solution to powerless doesn't really answer my setira to selfish. To keep it simple. The basic idea is when we are not ready to work on oursleves and just want to live the easy life and hope that hey one day we will just get in the mood and snap out we are powerless.That will never happen. And when the temptation arrives we will have no control to win. Its only when we put on our army uniforms and are ready to go to war then we can attain the power to maybe win the battle. That brings me back to my orginal question. The actual acting out is an addiction and we are powerless. We have power to go to battle. So say we don't choose to decalre war are we selfish? War is a very hard thing. Its life changing.

Say for example you need a really big favor that you know is difficult from a friend. So you approach and you ask him hey can you do me this really big favor, no pressure and I unerstand if you can't do it. (assuming it really is a big favor). No say that freind says sorry its just too difficult at the moment to do. Most of us would not consider that selfish. To the contrary if its a small thing that won't cost our friend any time or money (I don't know say he is taveling somewhere anyhow and you just want a ride.) yet the guy still says no. Most of us call that selfish.

What I am getting at is, I define selfish as one who only cares about himself without considering the other guys thoughts. But what if I care about the other guy tremoundsly, just you are asking me to alter my whole life and go to war for your sake am I still selfish? Well the only way to win this lust addiction is to decalre war. Just to be clear I am not at all saying its too hard don't do it. No we were not put on this world to live the easy life. Too bad suck it up and fight. But what I am saying is, its hard to claim that one who chooses not to is selfish. After all its the toughest battle of our life.

Thanks I love ur post so true!!

This should have been my first post of the day.

3 DAYS FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The 4 days free threshhold is a big one and I need you guys to hlep me reach it. Why is it so big. Because I have gone through 3 day yom tovs without acting out. Not always but at -least some times. Kind of wierd but i always felt es pas nisht to do it on shabbos & yom tov. Plus I need a shower after I do it! Anyhow 4 days would be a novelity. So lets go for it!!!!

Re last nite, I feel asleep via listening to talk radio (I am a news junky so I like listening to intersting intellectual radio podcasts often NPR.) That did help me fall asleep even though the tavai did creep up. Of course tefilas helped too. I still twisted & turned in middle of the nite for a dose. But I think it was a bit better than prior nites! Its still a test though

I should point out as mentioned earlier, people have differnet style lust addictions. Some and I think most addicts are just addictied to the enjoyment of acting out. When the pressure ticks u they will go to a bar etc.. But they can also last days doing nothing. I on the other hand am differnet. I have this terrble crave & itch almost like I have to go to the john. (Some posters think i am crazy and it doesn't make sense but its true) The only way to releave that itch is by acting out. Now yes its a vicous cycle. Because masterbating brings on the itch a few hours later even stronger. Holding back for one day relives the itch as well. But it nags me when I am tring to sleep and my daily dose of these stuff became a natrual way of life as to how I sleep at nite. (Yes I have meet addicts. I kind of meet them in a funny sad sinnful way. I was exploring how what when and where others do averious. We each discussed our averious. It wasn't teshuva discussion. It was an averia and fantasy discussion. Any how even these bali averious some of them played around with ashies ish were shocked that I really can do this twice a nite. My main point. My flavor of the addiction varies slightly (I think) from the main stream. I know its hard for some to understand my particular genetics of my lust disease.

Most important, ideas for tonite please?????????????/

waydown wrote:


there are levels of selfishness.

waydown wrote:


Page 38 is awaitin'

Agreed but I think the bar is a bit high by saying one who doesn't choose to fight the toughest battle of his life. And its a battle that you will never win till you die.(Ok maybe when you are an old wise man and hashem takes away the tavia.) And you will fall 5 times even prior to containing the cancer. ( i am not even sure if those 5 times lshietascha are selfish outbursts or no you are trying hard just we all fall.)