I wasn't attempting a character defamation of dov. I'm sorry if it came off that way.
However, he does state his opinion on what he thinks a person's options are to succeed in these areas, and they are very limited!
With regards to if I've spoken to him... Yes I have, more than once. We are not close or anything, but I actually really like him.
My point is that there is a dominant view in the world of addiction that suppresses the views of others!
Contrast these two beliefs and decide for yourself which is more helpful:
1. I'm a sexaholic and urges will forever be inevitable, unless I follow the doctrines of the twelve steps.
2. Each time I don't give in it weakens the neural pathways created by my addictive behaviors and eventually things will get easier as I learn to surge urges and develop skills to overcome them.
You want to see the marketing techniques? Listen to dov! What I wrote in paragraph 4 is almost verbatim of what he has said in the past.
I will allow that he hasn't said you are an idiot. But basically he says all you can do is just fight. He denies that anything else can be effective other than the 12 steps. Ok, therapy maybe. He interprets "אין חבוש..." as if it was written about addiction! Basically, you can't help yourself if you're an addict. And who defines what an addict Is?
SA of course!
This is terribly disempowering! I understand people are trying to help by saying what worked for them...
I'm not saying it's all deliberate or malicious. I agree it's just suggestions. However, they really believe that they are correct. This is really dangerous. I don't know if I'm correct about any of the above, I may be wrong. S.A. might have got the definition of addict right.
However, as much as they say they promote by attraction... Who posts on the forums with a "know all, holier than thou attitude?"
Where is the fuc**** humility?
OK, I know I sound like a dic* in these past posts. I'm sorry.
Hi Markz, I really appreciate you responding. Just want to get that out there. I also appreciate that you don't think I'm a perv
With regards to your point about being an addict: I actually think I am an addict. I've
based this decision on hearing about the psychological experiences of addicts and finding that I relate very much to their experiences. (Incidentally, dov's experiences in particular.)
However, I don't think SA had a monopoly on defining what an addict is. Particularly, regarding their eternal designation of the title "sexaholic" to anyone who is currently addicted to sexual behaviors.
They use a very clever marketing technique. If you are an addict... Then you need the 12 steps. If you say you don't need the steps, than you are not an addict. So you clearly don't find it so hard to stop, and are just being an idiot.
This faulty logic ignores the possibility that I can be an addict as defined by Merriam Webster, "to devote or surrender (oneself) to something habitually or obsessively", but not be labeled a "sexaholic or "pervert" for life, nor be labeled powerless for eternity.
My issue with the 12 step fellowships is solely how they consciously/unconsciously disempower people from taking control of their life.
Brother, the 13th step is to step aside and allow others to do what works for them. if not considering yourself a pervert is what you prefer, I think you should follow that - I also don't think you're a perv
The word addict is bantered around a lot, but as dov says often (listen to him) it's not defined by halachic terms. Sex addiction is like drug addiction. Can you easily stop? Or are you out of control on a regular basis when confronted?
Maybe you're not an addict after all - like most of us
Again people mix issues and think only addicts need 12 steps, when it actually benefits many others too if they are willing. Ask yesod and others
Day 54: Today is 54 days since I've masturbated. I also went 52 days without looking at porn. Then, two nights ago I looked at porn.
Why did I do it you ask? Many reasons I think. Many dumb reasons.
Do you want to hear one of them?
"I'm installing a filter so I should "chap arein" and take a look while I can."
("Yes, I actually installed the filter right after.")
Here's another reason why I felt it was ok for me to look at porn two nights ago:
My regular way of acting out is masturbation, sometimes with porn accompanying it. Looking at porn without masturbating is a relatively new behavior for me. I'm very familiar with the feelings of withdrawal and depression that masturbation causes me to feel. However, the withdrawal felt from just looking at porn is a much newer feeling for me. I almost didn't realize it would make me feel so bad. In fact, the reason I decided to look at porn, rather than going and just masturbating, was because I thought that I could look, and walk away feeling fine.
Boy, was I wrong! I was a complete shell of myself the next day. Even today, I have not fully recovered from the feelings of withdrawal. I've lost my confidence and have become terribly timid.
All of this from looking at a few pictures!
Lastly, I'd like to write about something that some people will perhaps find controversial.
I think I also risk upsetting some people, and maybe even losing some friends. Nonetheless, I feel compelled to speak of what's on my heart.
I think that the 12 steps and their accompanying ideologies have helped me before. I also think that they have harmed me.
I think in many ways the the steps are an affront to the basic dignity of man.
(More so the culture of 12 step groups, than the steps themselves.)
I hear one prominent member of S.A. state often, "I'm a recovering pervert".
If they don't call themselves perverts they call themselves "sexaholics."
They can't stop talking about character defects, and how that's the cause of addiction. I however, choose to think I'm not so much worse than anyone else, with regards to my defects. Of course I have defects, but don't we all?!
The common denominator between all these names and concepts, is that they express belief in the existence of intrinsic flaws within the person. The sexaholics seems himself as lesser than other men, at least in regards to lust...
These flaws are not seen as a temporary state. Once an addict, always an addict, is the accepted belief. This counters basic truths of the brain's neuroplasticity, amongst challenging some other common sense assumptions.
I choose to believe that while I may do some perverted things that doesn't make me a pervert. Certainly not forever.
I was in school and therefore I was a student. That doesn't mean I'll be considered a student forever!
(Although I must admit, those student discounts were nice.)
P.S I write "They" in this post when talking about 12 step fellowship members. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to belittle anyone. I bear no animus towards any members of these fellowships. I'm not looking to pick a fight, but I think I'm entitled to a belief that doesn't include thinking of myself as diseased.
P.P.S Please don't counter this post with the asinine statement that the 12 steps are for addicts, and if I feel I don't need them, than I'm not an addict.
I am an addict. I sure as hell don't think I'll be one forever though.
i am having trouble with becoming aroused in the bedroom
two questions
is it okay to read a sex help book with my wife if it has some graphic pictures?
also is it okay to take pictures in bed during sex to help arouse my lust?
i am asking both from a halacha point a view and a potential addiction issue.
I am a 25yo single who has struggled with porn addiction for as long as i can remember. It's actually been years since I knew I do not have the tools to beat this alone, yet I could not bring myself to actually begin the journey. Hence I have only the deepest respect for every single one of you.
I started watching even before I hit puberty. Since then over the years, I have had some clean streaks but I always relapsed and relapsed hard. More recently, it has once again become a nightly thing. I knew that this was detrimental and in no way a positive outlet, but I also knew I couldn't beat it, so I learned how to live with it. But I also felt I wasnt really living, but rather surviving.
Like, I'm sure, many here I spent years in yeshiva. One can argue I even did well (I have semicha!). However all throughout yeshiva I always felt like the guy in the shmuesin. I would learn etc but I never felt anything. I only kept at it because I was good at it, and it is empowering to do something you are good at. I also didn't really have the guts to go out into the great unknown. Even now, I wake up early before work to learn, but I only do it because it superficially feels good to do something that I am great at.
I even started learning chassidus (should be mandatory in every yeshiva), but while I feel a connection to it, there is a massive block stopping it from really becoming a part of me. It would seem leading to lives that are so diametrically opposed to each other is not conducive.
Throughout the years of my struggle, I slowly realized that yes, I am an addict. I've had moments of inspiration to reach out for help but never really did. Specifically after see i dont like in this TED talk
as well as reading articles on addiction that so vividly explained the battles I had.
I finally joined after hearing David Lichtenstien's podcast. podcast.headlinesbook.com/e/81717-dealing-with-internet-addiction/
While I am positive this is the forum is where I will feel most comfortable, I do have one hesitation/question. I am nervous this forum takes the stand that all secular is assur. (Similar to the way an actual alcoholic views alcohol). However the challenge here is I dont think many of us are looking to go full Meah Shearim and throw the interent out of our lives. Many of us need it for parnassah, or on a deeper level are looking to lead fulfilled lives that raise the secular up. As with the TED talk I linked above, as well as the scientific data, this very community is based off of, there is truly what to be gained from the secular world and the knowledge G-d has given them as well.
Either way, Im excited to start my journey and my way to living rather than surviving.
Hi
I'm currently in yeshiva and I'm having one of the worst momebts. I recently learned a Gemara talking about a man's erva with someone who had trouble controlling his immature laughter and once attaining the necessary seriousness started asking questions to deeply understand what the Gemara was saying. My body got excited but I hated every moment of it. I left seder early because I had an uneasy stomach and was desperate to find shelter in the Big Book. I realize this was a mistake. I thought the Big Book would help instead of davening to Hashem. But here I am, happy I have a supposedly strong filter on my phone which I am very tempted to test.very tempted to test. I'm mainly scared of allowing the yeshiva schedule to gain primacy over my recovery, because its very easy to forget I'm an addict in yeshiva. Im also feeling a strong urge to test a girl with whom I went to school I know I shouldn't but I'm not convinced in stinger times my opinion might change the main reason I'm not texting here is because I don't feel such an urge about my other guy friends, proving that it's just a taava Be'ezras Hashem
But who says that that's a goal that we should set for ourselves?
Also, that's part of B'makom Sheba'aei Teshuva Omdim, Ain Tzadikim Gemurim Yecholim La'amod.
We have that feeling that we're farfahlen to deal with (among other things) and that's a good way to tap in to "Leiv Nishbar VeNidkeh, Elokim Lo Sivzeh".
And one more thing, what's the Nafka Minah if you wind up like your friends who (as far as you know) never had this addiction -
L'maaseh this whole business of yes like friends/not like friends -IMHO- is lots of hooey, hogwash, bologna (pronounced baloney), shtissim, shtuyot, and for our friend Yoeli with the lithp -B.S. (I heard an Israeli chassidishe guy say that today und Ich zug dir tzi az er veist nisht vus s'maint bichlall; my mother washed out my mouth with soap when I innocently repeated the second half of that word).
Tachlis -Are you happy the way you are? When someone chalilah has yenner machlah, he's busy worrying about his not looking like his friends, or whether the treatments will work and he'll survive?
My dear friend -I have a problem, you have a problem, we have a problem. Any Jew who is frum and looks at P***, hangs out with shiktzas (actually they might be shekatzim, after all if you present yourself as some anonymous John, so can the person you're chatting with) online, can't give up M***N HAS A SERIOUS PROBLEM!!!
Because by definition, most people who live a frum lifestyle -and I'm not even talking about a shtickle ben-Torah, just your average Yossel -have Yiras Shamayim.
And if a guy with Yiras Shamayim in all other areas of life, a guy who has (in general) a wife, kids, other family members, a job or a Kollel, a good (or at least decent) reputation, and whatever else your average Yossel has knowingly and with open eyes places all of what's good in his life on the line in order to watch P***, hang out online with shiktzas, and M**** until he starts losing the ta'am in anything he ever enjoyed HE IS AN ADDICT!!!.
His friend might not be.
So it's a choice, worry about me, or worry about if I'm going to ever be like my 'normal' friends...
Worry about today, because without today -there is no tomorrow.
And I'm not a Rebbe, Navi, or fool who gives out havtachos. I haven't even been around here that long. But I am 100% sure, so I will guarantee you that if you get with the program here, and get clean -you will be so happy, and so satisfied that you won't be able to care less if you are like your 'normal' friends or not. You'll be happy just the way Hashem made you.
Besides, maybe your 'normal' friends: a. are here now. b.were here in the past. c.could really, really, really desperately use to be here, and weren't yet zocheh. d.were never here, don't need to be here, and never will.
Hashem Help me, write this messsage. Hehe I had to!
Hashem help me, I am sorry. I should have been clear, I am writing as an addict. Perhaps you are not an addict. I cant control my self so i am just delaying the inevitable. for me it just leads to more self pity and worthlessness cause deep down i know i cant control my self.
If somebody sets up a Tapsic and its not working for them and he is just being a dry drunk and not focusing on the real issues and he's not getting closer to God then in my experience it isn't a good idea.
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Yes, I agree: from what I can see it's not abnormal to be worried about an all-consuming spiritual crisis and addiction, if it's addiction. Listen to the Dov calls and read the book. If it's addiction, you have a lot of support here to face it. Your relationship to Gd will inevitably change in ways you can't imagine if you commit to the recovery program. That's what I found, at least, and I thought I understood where I stood in my spiritual life. I didn't. Stay strong!
this fall is a whole lot different from the previous falls after being connected to guy, it's a lot less intense, I know what's going on in side of me, what caused it and what i did wrong by not using the tools that I gained from gye, with hashems help I'll get right back to life and sobriety.
ill right down all the details for my fall in a day or 2 it will iyh definitely help me and with hashems help maybe others too.
It's fine, I'm not being too hard on myself. It was more of a figure of speech anyway, but some people just like to start big debates about phrases and words which don't suit their views. We're all different, some will be more reform, others will be inclined to a more stricter orthodox view. There's no need to argue about anything. Thank you all for your input, you all had interesting points to make and I've enjoyed reading them. G-d bless you all. And yes, I know there is much that I can learn through all the trials and tribulations of life. There are blessings in disguise. For example, I would have never come across this website if it weren't for the unfortunate events of my addiction progressing. And through this website I have learned and gained much new knowledge, and a wiser outlook on life. I feel like I have got so much closer to Hashem and the teachings within the Torah, Talmud and other holy writings.
I am sorry but this whole thread is now niggling me the wrong way.
Reb HHM all those punishments in the Torah never stopped you from acting out for 30-40 years because you were a sick person.
Sick NOT evil.
Cords - my God does not mete out punishments to his beloved children who he gave the dis-ease of addiction to... the dis-ease is a 'punishment' enough until they wake up.
There is a reason why I am cured only for today as long as i take my medicine.
If i stop taking my medicine, ill get back into my own personal gehennom... thats 'punishment' enough.
And the medicine begins with "trust God"
This thread now belongs in the non addict section of the forum for all the people who need chizzuk to stop doing aveiros.
Glad to hear that you are so plugged in. 12 steps teach humility, as in we have no clue as to what our God does or doesn't do. To decide that your god punishes thru addiction (in the first place), and that it is sufficient enough seems to me as a pretty brazen statement and assertion. Perhaps tell your god what to do and what not to do.
Personally, I am not convinced at all that my God even gave me this addiction.
B'hatzlachah to all
Thanks.
Humility is slated in for 2023.
Punishment was written with inverted commas for i see it as a gift.
I am never sufficiently grateful (actually that phrase triggers me to be annoyed but ill use it here) for God creating the circumstances in my life that made me an addict, which brought me to recovery.
Either is God is everything or He is nothing.
