A tale of two tefillos

Here's an issue I have. I have davened probably thousands of tefillos (way more than 515) for Hashem to fix my lust problem. Some with more kavana, some with less. Some with tears of repentance, some with utter apathy. But over the years, I have said many many many tefillos over this problem.

The issue I have is not that I feel like my tefillos are ignored. I can accept that Hashem heard my tefillos, put my tears in a box, and told me no. I think I can really accept that.

Here's my issue. If Hashem didn't grant my request the first three thousand times, why is time number three thousand and one going to change his mind? 

This question really arose on step 2 and 3 of the 12 steps. 


I believe God is capable of returning me to sanity. But what I have trouble believing is that he wants to. For whatever reason he seems to want me in the trenches. 

That question is specifically on the 12 steps and I'm not qualified to address it and therefore won't (Dov has a pshat. Talk to him about it.)

But the question applies to GYE too. Tefillah is mentioned over and over as an important tool, and I believe it is an important tool. But it seems clearly that the answer to this tefillah is, "Put in the work" so what's the point of continuing to daven?

I think the answer lies in the difference between two tefillos. And maybe this is obvious to many already, but to me it was a bit of a chiddush.

For a very long time I was asking Hashem to solve my problem. Just cut out my lust. Give me a clean day. Remove my struggle.
To put it harshly, that type of tefillah is an escapist fantasy.

It's like davening to win the lottery. Yes Hashem could do that, and I would maybe do excellent things with that money. But I'm davening for that because I want to get out of my life. That's not a healthy tefillah. Hashem is capable of doing it, but clearly doesn't want to, and on some level the request is coming from a desire to not put in the work. 

There's another type of tefillah. Davening to Hashem to help me do it. Ilmoleh Hkb"h ozro ein yuchal lo. Accepting that I have this problem, being willing to put in the work, and asking Hashem to help me with the struggle because I cannot do it on my own. This can be done before an urge arises, but is extremely powerful at the time of an urge (and can often completely remove an urge).

So I still ask Hashem to take away my problem. He's capable of doing it and the power of tefillah is limitless. But primarily I ask Hashem to help me (to be clear, Hashem's "help" is doing it all. But that's a little bit of a separate discussion.) 

This is something I'm still thinking about. But this is what my current pshat is. Comments are welcome.

chosemyshem wrote on 28 Aug 2024 20:12:

Have you turned your will completely over to Him if you are questioning what Hashem wants?

I recently read that "we don't go to work because we need money, we need money so that we should go to work." 
We have growth to accomplish, to develop to our shleimus. G-d could have created us complete, He can grant the lottery win, but whole point is in the work, not the money. He can take away lust, but that misses the boat. The success is in the process, so davening for His help aligns with your purpose, as opposed to davening to skip to the end and miss out on reason we are here.


(Bookmarked this post from richtig's thread and feel like this might be a good place to share it. Please let us know what you think).
guardyoureyes.com/forum/17-Balei-Battims-Forum/396104-Some-Stuff?limit=15&start=120#397845

I always love your posts Shem, and can count on you to bring out helpful ideas.
Thank you

BenHashemBH wrote on 28 Aug 2024 20:41:

It is indeed more of a question on step 2 than step 3. But the explicit purpose of the steps is to end up free from the addiction, so I think it's fair to question how that works. 

I like that line about work and money.

chosemyshem wrote on 28 Aug 2024 20:56:

Is 'free from the addiction' and 'free from lust' the same thing? 
Meaning are you supposed to lose it, or supposed to regain the ability to choose?

I agree with your "other type of tefillah."

When Rabbi Elazar ben Pedas fainted from malnourishment and asked Hashem how much longer he'll be suffering like this, the response he got was, if we start over from scratch, there's a chance things might be different for you. He didn't like the odds and rejected the offer.

Asking Hashem to "fix my lust problem" is akin to what he wanted. And the answer is likely the same too.

Your tefillos aren't being ignored, you're just asking for the wrong thing. This is you. Essentially, you're asking to be someone else.
As the saying goes, it's not a bug; it's a feature.

And that's where acceptance comes into play.
I don't want to be anyone else. I embrace everything I have, and ask Hashem to help me get the most out of it.


P.S.
Regarding this line:


I think it's Rav Dessler (please correct me if I'm wrong) who writes that Tefillah is never about changing Hashem's mind, but about changing ourselves into the person worthy of what we're asking for.

chosemyshem wrote on 28 Aug 2024 20:12:

I really appreciate this post. I think it’s gold, correct, and it believe it can be extremely helpful for all the lonely, dejected people out there who are wondering what the point of Davening again is….

To add one important point. Moshe Rabbeinu davened 515 times to be allowed into EY. Presumably Moshe davenwd with a lot of Kavana. The Rebono Shel Olam said “No”. Nevertheless, had he davened even one more time , the Aibishter would have had “no choice” but to accede to his request. It’s clear from this Chazal  that repeated Tefillos have greater power, even after many, many times. The way my Rav explained it is that Tefillah changes us. So more Tefillos change us more. And that’s what “changes” Hashem’s Ratzon. 

This is in line with your point, Shem. But it’s also a stand-alone point. 

Gotta run to Daven now, actually. 

Love, 
איש החפץ בחיים

thompson wrote on 28 Aug 2024 21:14:

Fantastic, as well. 

This is compatible with Shem’s point, taken from a different angle, which is what I think you’re saying.

To be precise: A Tefillah to take the problem away is a Tefilla to be a different person.
A Tefilla to help me in the work I need to do, is a Tefilla to grant me assistance in the Avodah that I was created for. 

“Acceptance”, to me, means accepting the contours of my internal reality and the true nature of who I am and what I have to do. Accepting my imperfections and limitations. But it does not mean to give up, perish the thought, on the work and on the goals that I hope to yet accomplish, with כל עצמותי

Thank you, 
מאן דבעי חיים

thompson wrote on 28 Aug 2024 21:14:

Perhaps a thought relevant to this discussion.


The other day, I was speaking to a friend here and he shared with me the following.

When the skolener Rebbe was in jail, one morning he was davening and when he got up to the words Baruch goizer umikayem in Baruch sheamar he stopped for a minute. He couldn't understand how we're supposed to be mishabeach Hashem for not only making gezeiros on us but also for being mekayem them!? He stood there pondering the meaning of these words, unable to continue. And then the realization struck him. The word mekayem is not going on the gzeira but rather its referring to the person induring the gzeira. Hashem is mekayem the person throughout the gezeira in order that he be able to navigate it properly and bezh pull through. Comfortable that this was the true explanation, the Rebbe was able to continue his davening.

Beautiful vort.

If I may I'd like to suggest another pshat. The Pasuk in tehillim says, even muasoo habonim huysa lrosh Pina. Pashut pshat I believe, is a mashal to how the umos haolom view klal yisroel. Throughout the galus The nations of the world (the bonim) look at us yidden, (the stone) with disgust and hatred. But when the geulah comes and Hashems glory fills the world, they will realize that the same "stone" they looked at with disgust and hatred all this time, ended up being the "corner stone", the most vital and looked up to nation in the "binyan".

I once heard a vort on this pasuk Al pi derech drush.

We all have many different personal nisyonos in our lives. Many of us can point to one thing, one particular test, be it a physical, emotional, or ruchniyus struggle, that we wish we would've been spared from having. Often people can think to themselves "if only I wouldn't have this one problem my life would be manageable or even great".

What we must understand however, is that the only way we can fulfill our tafkid and come to our shleimus is by having and working through this particular test. Without this one struggle that we wish we didn't have, the we wouldn't be us. The I wouldn't be me. Only after weathering through and overcoming this obstacle will the me that Hashem had in mind when he created me come out.

Even muasu habonim haysa lrosh Pina.

And when I come out on the other side of this test, I'll hug and kiss this challenge with respect and reverence for it's instrumental and vital role in being the cornerstone of the me that Hashem had in mind the whole time.

Maybe that's the pshat in goizer umekayim. We praise Hashem for not only making gzeiros, but for sustaining them because we trust Him that he made them for our own good. That they are necessary for our growth. That we need them. That without them we just wouldn't be able to be us.


Perhaps, as we beg Hashem to help us with our struggle, realizing that our struggle gufah is us can help give us the proper prospective when it comes to tefila. 


Baruch goizer umikayem

Minhamayim

thompson wrote on 28 Aug 2024 21:14:

Great points R' T. 

Actually it's interesting you mention Rav Elazar Ben Pedas's tefillah. Rav Shimshon Pincus has an amazing shtickel on that gemara where he says the reason Hashem poked him was because Rav Elazar Ben Pedas missed something. REB"P argued that the reward Hashem could give in Olam Haba is limitless, but he should have also argued that Hashem's power to act in this world is also limitless, and that Hashem could grant him wealth without unmaking the world. 

So regarding what you and R' CO wrote about acceptance and what @minhamayin wrote about "our struggle is us" (amazing vort by the way!). That's is really a broader hashkafic discussion. But I think you can daven to be placed on a higher level of life. To struggle on a plane that's closer to Hashem. That's why I wrote that I still ask for Hashem to take away the problem. Because he can, and maybe one day I'll be a person whom it would be good to not have the problem. But my motivation when making that tefillah had been pure escapism. And that is the opposite of the very important acceptance you wrote about.

This may not be so clear. But to put it another way. The 12 steps teach radical acceptance of Hashem's will without praying for any change to it (see step 11). I don't think that's how normal people are meant to live. Yes, accept Hashem's will. Yes, stop trying to escape and start putting in the work to grow from where you are. And that realization and change in prayer has been (and is) very important for me. But you're allowed to want things and ask Hashem to change the world (and yourself) to give them to you. And Hashem can give that to you.

Regarding the Rav Dessler, I meant to stay totally away from the mechanics of how tefillah works. It's just too broad of a discussion. 

To clarify a point in the original post. I don't just ask Hashem to help me with the struggle. Because I know how very, very little I can do (and that's been proven over many years of rigorous trial and error). I don't know if I'm powerless here, but I'm pretty darn close. So I daven for Hashem to give me the will to fight, the knowledge how to fight, and to help me do my part of the fight. And then I ask him to help me win the fight after I did my part.

All this is just thinking out loud about these excellent comments.

minhamayim wrote on 29 Aug 2024 00:27:

You aren't stuck in traffic; you are the traffic.

Had a stupid fall yesterday.

It was stupid since I had no urges, no triggers, and no excuses. I just didn't want to work and went straight for the jugular.

I was going to ask for suggestions about focusing at work. Especially since GYE is a gateway drug in this regard - it's the first, most kosher, site I turn to. But it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter because focusing at work isn't my problem. It's a severe symptom of my problem. My problem is life.

I was trying to think back about when I'd really lived my life. Those times are disturbingly far and few between. Did I live life in yeshiva? Sometimes, but most of my time was spent just trying to get through the day and waiting for something to happen. There were I think just two years in a specific yeshiva where I spent significant amounts of time involved, living my life. The couple years I spent in kollel were also a time when I lived my life most of the time (unsurprisingly, those were clean times). 

Looking back, I used to think I had problems getting up for shachris. What a stupid lie. I had problems getting up for shachris. But it's not like I missed shachris and then got up. I would spend as long as possible lying in my bed until guilt, fear, or my chavrusa kicked me out of bed. I didn't have problems with shachris I had problems with the life that started when I got out of bed.

Spoiler alert, that's still more or less my morning routine.

So naturally when I started working I started trying to escape. It's not a work problem. It's not like I'd be better in any other situation. It's that I never lived my life, and don't particularly like living my life. 

I actually like my job. Despite all the whining and complaining I do, it's interesting, meaningful, and I'm pretty good at it. It's life I don't jive with.

I don't know why I don't engage in living my life, and honestly I don't think it matters much. And please don't read this as some depression filled self-loathing rant (though it totally is coming from that heavy burden of post fall depression). I'm pissed about the fall, but far from depressed and I like myself a while lot. I'm identifying the problem, and the problem isn't just porn, the problem is not my family, the problem is not work. The problem is me and my relationship with life. 

I don't have a solution. SA says they have a solution, but I don't particularly feel like joining that solution (and I know the most toxic thing to recovery is drawing a line and saying I'm willing to do this but not that. But here I am drawing a line.) Judaism has solutions, but I've been living those solutions for a long time and they haven't yet clicked. Therapy, medication, counseling, rabbinical advice all think they have solutions for problems but I don't think my life has an identifiable treatable problem. The good news is I don't particularly care if there's a solution. So it goes.

Feeling very grateful I was somehow saved from acting out yesterday. 

Between labor day, a broken computer, and my general low work ethic, I have somehow managed to work just one day's worth of work this entire week. But I'm still clean.

Something's been weighing on me since Shabbos. It was a rough Shabbos. My wife got super pissed at me (unusually so and over what I thought was nothing) and I was already feeling very low after my fall Thursday. So I was very tempted to act out. Now, I don't usually masturbate without content these days, and I'm not watching porn on shabbos b"h. But I was checking out every woman in the streets to an extreme degree. 

So there I am walking down the street to maariv and almost at the frummest shul in town with tons of people heading in the same direction, when I see through someone's window not one but two underdressed women walking around. I basically froze in my tracks for a second staring, then came to my senses and realized anyone could see me and kept on going. Stuck in my head for quite a bit though. 

Here's the part that's been weighing on me. I don't know how many windows I look in (and was actually not really aware of the problem until this happened. But it's a real problem that needs work. Not today's topic though.) But I cannot recall ever seeing a sight like this. So why was it presented to me at such a vulnerable time? And then a day like yesterday where I was basically planning to act out I did not, in what I can only consider a direct divine intervention. What's going on up there??

chosemyshem wrote on 05 Sep 2024 13:42:

Whom are you asking?
I don't think the Orchestrator is on the forum.

chosemyshem wrote on 05 Sep 2024 13:42:

Brother Shem,
You are a deep thinker. Your analysis and conclusions are frequently on the mark - even in your own situation, though you may have a small blind spot when it comes to looking at yourself (don't we all). 

Forgive my underdeveloped theory, but I wonder if such an unexpected event throws you off due to lack of deliberate actions leading up to it. A jolt that jumps you out of the pattern and stands out. The shock activates a part of you that is subdued, buried under the mundane acceptance of how things are.

Perhaps the divine bolt wasn't there to trigger you, it was there to resuscitate the slumbering part of you that can break the mold. 

Then again, I'm not G-d, so don't take my word for it 

BenHashemBH wrote on 05 Sep 2024 16:00:

As I said many, many times on this thread, I am well aware that I am not good with being honest with myself and recognizing what's going on inside me. At least I'm aware of what I don't know.

I like this theory.

Got me thinking on a related point. It's funny but I think a lot of the time when we actually obtain the lust we have been seeking it's a surprise. A substantial part of us is always hoping, or even expecting, something will come along and save us from ourselves. So kal v'chomer when we haven't been directly seeking out the lust we are surprised by getting it - despite it being what we wanted. 

I figured you weren't G-d. Your name says you are G-d's son, and I'm pretty sure the official philosophy of this site is that one cannot be both G-d and his son. That being said, many people have pointed out that events are intended for us to learn from - therefore we must be able to come to a correct understanding of them from our own seichel otherwise the attempt at communication would be pointless.