Learnt a great shtickel in Madreigas H'adam that should be whipped out anyone says they "graduated" GYE.  Shaar bakashos hashleimus, perek 8:
https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/snapshot.aspx?seferid=41717&pg=269&pw=594&ph=895&x=44&t=105&w=494&h=723&png=y

https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/snapshot.aspx?seferid=41717&pg=270&pw=598&ph=895&x=60&t=60&w=471&h=341&png=y

Edit: tried pasting in the pics but it didn't work right. Oh well.
Basically he says people supported by the group think they don't need the group but they're mistaken about their personal level because they are so supported by the group. And the avodah is to work in the group and also to work on yourself as an individual.

Hmm.


Source.

Heard something from Dov that maybe is similar.

I always thought I like watching porn. And then once I watch porn I get very worked up and decide to masturbate as a release. I thought my ikkar problem is porn. Yeah, I masturbate sometimes without porn. But usually some visual stimulation comes first.
And so but maybe that's got the cause and effect backwards. Maybe I really like masturbating (sex with self) and to warm myself up and lower my inhibitions I watch porn first. But I'm just fooling myself about what the real problem is.
It's like picking a fight with your wife so you have an excuse to act out - the issue is not the fight. The issue is the desire to act out, and therefore there's a fight.

I don't know if that's for sure correct. But it rang true inside. I know for sure alot of "aimless browsing" is started knowing deep down I am going to watch porn and just need to ease myself into it. Could be most of my porn use is similar. 
One reason it felt true: How many times have I seen what's on my screen and thought this is ridiculous and disgusting . . . but I'll just keep on going because I need to finish? 

Is there a nafka mina? Either way, both porn and masturbation are hurting me, and I know I have trouble controlling both. But I do think knowing what the ikkar problem is should be helpful in solving it.

CHoosy,
First of, I dont like your new avatar, I dont like it one bit. It looks too much like the devil (I bumped into him once or twice)
Regarding the Ikkar and Tofel question- Its very hard to answer that, so ill answer. 

Our brain has a chemical called "Dopamine" its  a neurotransmitter and hormone it acts on areas of the brain to give you feelings of pleasure, satisfaction and motivation. 
Most people have normal Dopamine levels and they feel fine, they ae not so susceptible to addiction. 

However, some people, especially people with ADHD and similar conditions, do not have a normal level of Dopamine, that has a lot of different effects on the mind and body like focus and mood and energy, etc. Im not getting into that. 
Most people with healthy brains will not get addicted so fast to most things.
However, when people, be in regular healthy and especially people with the conditions i mentioned, get exposed to something that gives you an insane amount of Dopamine like sex, porn, etc. or drugs and that sort of stuff, the brain gets hooked very fast and very strong.  

Some people get more pleasure by looking, thier touch senses are not so hightended, some people get more pleasure by smelling, everyone has different amounts of pleasure he gets from different senses, feel, sight, smell, hearing, etc. 
So it might be that you actually get more pleasure by looking and then get overwhelmed into doing. 
Or maybe you just want the dopamine rush and you subcounsicly look for that hit untill you find it. 

I dont see a difference. The only thing is that Porn is much easier to keep locked away and filtered than your pants........


Stay strong 

Great points @Chancy.

Checking in.

Rough week, but was clean all week (at least so far...).

Had a nice victory the other day. My wife is more of a morning person, and is sometimes available early in the morning. So she initiated (or at least, responding agreeable to my initiation) one morning. Things were progressing, but the hour was late. Carpools were coming soon, shachris was waiting, and then the kids woke up and started whining outside the door. In previous similar situations I had continued to where things were heading. I mean, how could I possibly stop? And if I stop, I'll miss out on sex?? And of course the frummest svara, if I don't take care of this now I may masturbate later hashem yishmor? So forget about kids, shachris, carpools and all responsibility.

This time I managed to remind myself that I don't "need" this (and "how dumb will I feel posting this on my thread" ) and derailed the express train. Felt good to feel like I was in control a little bit. [Major thanks to my accountability partner for helping me stay the clean the rest of the day after I got myself all wound up.]

Anyway. Otherwise a pretty blah week. Got very little work done. Only made it to the daf once, and don't have a night seder chavrusa currently so didn't learn much. Guess life isn't automatically rainbows and unicorns just cause you're clean for a minute. 

Checking in.

Ending up having a fall Friday after my check in post. Was in a real HALT environment, and went for it. Didn't bother reaching out.

How do I learn to reach out when I don't want to??

Was a weird fall. Watched a little porn but didn't enjoy it at all. Didn't feel good, didn't distract/numb me. Terrible. Couldn't even work up the desire to masturbate. Idk.

Went into shabbos in a terrible mood. But bh had a nice shabbos despite myself and was a good reset. 

Not at all prepared for Shavous but like it or not it's coming. Shavous is stressful for me. I get very tired and feel like I need to be learning as much as possible and it creates lachatz. But bezras hashem I'll be too busy to sin. Goal is to be outside as little as possible - it'll be hot, I'll be tired, and the women will be out and about in their yom tov finery. Imma try to hide out in the coldest beis medrash in town with endless mike and ikes and 40 blatt of daf yomi to catch up on. 

I'm not nearly as optimistic as I was cruising into Pesach. But every year on Pesach I've done the - "I'm a new person now and totally killed my yetzer hara with some matzah and I'm going to rocket through sefira and this year I'll have a real kabbalas hatorah". And every year I made it like a few days until falling (sometimes not even through chol hamoed). Last year I even had a whole written plan (mostly involving avoiding entertainment as a geder) bc I was already on GYE, and I did better but not great. 
This year I did that too, especially because I was in a good mindset going into Pesach. Obviously didn't happen. Oh well. Clean today and that's what counts (pun intended). And Hashem is capable of giving me his Torah regardless, but that's a spiritual discussion for another day.

Have a great yom tov everyone!

Hashem is capable of giving the Torah to each of us undeserving muddlers, and that’s a reason to celebrate, however haltingly the 50 day count went, in any area. 

Yeshuos Yaakov says that we drink milk because דם נעכר ונעשה חלב , the Torah represents converting the lowlier parts of ourselves into nourishing Chaim, ברצונו 

Not enjoying the fall and not feeling it - is a sign, methinks, of internal change. Embrace that- and yourself. 

You’re one of the good ones. Here’s a slice of virtual cheesecake, drizzled with caramel and bourbon sauce, with a healthy helping of ice cream and caring on the side. Enjoy! 

Have a great Yom Tov! 

Chaimoigen

chaimoigen wrote on 11 Jun 2024 16:28:

Who isn't one of the good ones? Name and shame R' CO, name and shaaaaaaaaaaaame.
I was craving caramel bourbon cheesecake the whole yom tov. I had so many other delicious cheesecakes, but none of them were caramel bourbon and I remained unsatisfied. Alas. (I feel like this is a good metaphor for something, but idk.)

Anyway. Had a very nice Shavous b"h. Said tikun shavous night instead of "real learning". Does this mean I've finally left my yeshiva days and evolved into a real baal habos? (No shade being thrown at tikun. It's a beautiful thing and I said it out of inspiration (and because I didn't have any chavrusas.) But it sure felt baal habatish.)

Anyhow. Successfully hid in shul most of the time. But had to walk around to a couple meals. And of course there's the walk to and from shul. And so but shavous is a serious HALT environment (except without being hungy. Who could be hungry after so much cheesecake.) And all the women and girls are out and about, dressed fit to kill. So there I was standing on a street corner outside shul trying to cross the street, when a gaggle of women with too short skirts waddles by. And I had the following sleep deprived conversation with myself: 
"Don't LOOK"
"Okay. But I gotta check in that direction to see if any cars are coming."
"Shoitah. You're just looking for an excuse to look."
"Chosid shoitah." 
"C'mon man. We both know that if you look for a car your just gonna stare at those girls."
"So you want me to get hit by a car? Or you want me to just stand on this street corner for forever. Pick one man."

So I stood there arguing with myself for a couple minutes, and then slowly turned the minimum so the street was in my field of vision but the sidewalk was not.
It was a very sleep deprived and neurotic moment.

And so but I was thinking about it later. A regular guy could mstama look for a car and cross the street without any issues. But I know that I've miswired myself that I'd be laser focused in on the unfortunate woman who strays into my field of vision. So what am I supposed to do? Hashem wants me to live life, not hide in my house my whole life. But He also wants me to follow the Torah and not eye-devour every innocent woman who crosses my path.
It was helpful for me to think about it this way. Hashem also wants everyone to put on tefillin, but there are people who are sick with terrible diseases and had to have both arms amputated so they can't put on tefillin. There are people who are too sick to fast on Yom Kippur and must eat. And I am too sick to go outside the same way healthy people can. I hope I'll recover to the extent that I can go outside normally once again, but right now I'm sick. And the Torah requires of me what it requires of any sick person - to take the sickness into account and fulfill the Torah however I can. 

(Note: Recovery might involve not being neurotic about crossing the street. That's not my point. My point, if I am forced to have one, is that beating myself up for having to do "unusual" things to combat extreme urges is somewhat analogous to the cancer patient beating himself up for eating on Yom Kippur. I guess this line of thought was inspired by CO's rachmanus post.)

If a "regular" guy was taking such precautions for shmiras einayim, would it not be praiseworthy? All the more so someone who is struggling with it!

I know a tzadik who lives in a very tznius place, who (I can almost guarantee) did not grow up with shmiras einayim addiction. He is careful how he walks around, even in his own community, and maybe walks around without glasses sometimes, even there. Because there are tznius women there on the street and he is healthy and has a yetzer hara to look. So based on that, you are quite normal. Awesome hero for going through the conversation and winning the battle with yourself!!!

To clarify in response to Benhashembh and frank.lee's points.

Of course someone who is careful in halacha and "kedusha" is praiseworthy. And there are holy people who are very stringent with shemiras einayim and that's beautiful.
But that guy taking off his glasses in the street is (likely) doing so as a chumra - as an expression of fear of sin that's (hopefully) coming from love/fear of Hashem. I'm not that guy.

I can't look in the street because if I do, it's the first step in a sequence that I sometimes can't stop (or at least, is very difficult for me to stop once the lust train picks up steam.) Not every time I take a second look does it drag me down a path of lust culminating in . . . Most times it doesn't. And stopping at the third look isn't so tough. But that happens sometimes.

So while I understand the pump-up mussar and all, I still sometimes feel like I'm living on a sub-optimal plane. And because it was Shavous I was thinking of that in the framework of having misaligned myself from the Torah. And so my comforting thought was that even with my sickness/screw-ups/struggles, a Torah life is available on my level. 
I hope that made sense.

chosemyshem wrote on 14 Jun 2024 16:43:

Well guess what . Bh I am in a good enough place that even if I look It will bezh not bring me further. Yet the streets are still torture. Constant vigilance is not just a motto. If you are able to have that convo with yourself and than win, than you are in a waaay better place than all those that pause for a 2nd and 4th look.
You are miles ahead because you know what your fighting for

chosemyshem wrote on 14 Jun 2024 16:43:

Mitoch shelo lishma ba lishm and give yourself more credit. I don't know about everyone, but I'm here because I started on the sub-optimal plane. I still have a foot there, and the other is rising for the next step up. That guy's fear of sin is a chumra and your fear of sin is more metzius. Do you really think you're not coming from the right place when you struggle and decide for any reason to try and do the right thing? If you were CV misaligned from the Torah, it would likely not effect you so deeply. This is where it begins. Hatzlacha and have a beautiful Shabbos!

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that there is an issue, and a yh, to look, get pleasure from looking, stare, multiple looks etc. and there is another level where such sights can trigger a chain of acting out? If that is what you mean, yes, I assume the Tzadik is dealing with they yh to look, maybe have some improper or jealous thoughts, and that's it. That is what I meant, that every or plenty of men have this yh. But yes, maybe you have a secondary issue, and BeH you will be able to move up from that level.

Shavua tov!

Some really great points guys. Thought about this some more, and had a convo with the illustrious Shevayipol too that clarified some of what I'm thinking about.

Standard disclaimer: These are just my thoughts that I'm throwing on the page. If you disagree then by all means, shoot back.

But let's talk about "street looking." There's three types of street looking: 1) seeing a woman in the street, 2) staring at a woman in the street (we'll call this "looking") and 3) going to the street to look at women (this last one might include someone who davka gets excited by ogling women in public - some flavor of a peeping tom thing.) I'm not talking about this last category - that guy's suffering from lust and just coincidentally engaging in his sickness in the place people suffer with other problems.

But let's talk about the first two types of people. I see alot of brothers bemoaning the streets, and I've done my fair share of that, but without being specific about what the issues are on the streets. So let's get overly analytical here for a minute.

Kodem kol, there's an issur of lo susuru. Unfortunately, for most of us here, that's probably not a factor that's currently weighing too heavily into our equations. If you're someone who is tortured on the streets because you're terrified of being oiver on a chelek of this aveira then I have a lot of respect for you, but not a lot to say. I, and I think many here would agree with this, am basically a living example of repeating an averiah until it becomes like mutar. That's not justifying transgressing the aveira, and to whatever chelek I can work on not being oiver the aveira I will, but that's not what is causing me pain on the streets.
Again, we're not excused from adhering to this mitzva, but thinking about the mitzva doesn't seem to affect our ability to stop, and the pain we feel is broader than the pain we feel when we transgress other mitzvos.

So back to the streets. Most "normal" people, likely are capable of seeing a woman without looking at her. And if she's an unusually eye-catching or attractive or immodest or just the right type of woman, maybe they'll look a little too. Now, looking is a flavor of indulging in lust. However, it's only taking a small sip of lust, and most people can manage their lust. So maybe they'll head home and let out their energy via the fourth kavana of the raavad, or maybe they'll just feel antsy and settle themselves down, but it won't shter them much.

Some people, however, have a harder time "seeing" without automatically "looking". This might be because they're such a sheltered bucher that any bit of skin is shocking and arousing (not saying that in a bad way. Just that some people are more sensitive for good reasons.) And it might be because they've spent so long throwing themselves into lust and sexualizing women that it's become habitual and hard to stop. But for these guys, seeing a women and not "looking" at her is tough.
Some people have a double chelek of bad luck (or bad life choices), and they also have trouble managing lust. So they take that small sip of lust that is letting themselves look at a woman and maybe that grows and feeds on itself and demands more lust. Now, where that poorly managed lust will end up depends on the person, where they are holding in the struggle, and many other factors. But the point is once they've "looked" they've entered an area where things are harder to control.

And so here's a point finally. I think one thing that often pains us in the street is that we are trying to cut the cord between "seeing" and "looking". And for the person who hasn't seriously indulged in lust that's not necessarily a huge struggle, and the consequences of losing it are not major (at least, not in this world.) So most people aren't getting bent out of shape over it. Yeah, they listen to vayimaen or take off their glasses for religious growth, but failing at religious growth doesn't cause most people pain most of the time. And if it does cause them pain then it's either 1) healthy yiras shomayim or 2) religious OCD.
But we have a strong slippery slope between seeing and looking. So it's a tough fight. And when we lose that fight, we know we're playing with fire because we've seen where an indulgence in lust leads us. So it really hurts to lose the fight. Even if we know that this time it won't lead back to the hell we were in, it's a taste of that same fire. And that hurts.
And even if we win the fight, it was a tougher fight. And fighting is hard and painful. So that also hurts.

And so we have a few options. For the hypothetical normal fellow, it's probably a good idea not to get too bent out of shape over some seeing or even some looking. Because stressing over it is likely to lead only to more losses. I'm not sure if this mehalach is an option for someone struggling with lust.
And so what I'm trying to do these days is to cut off the struggle at the easiest point, and avoid seeing. While that usually is the least painless, it definitely can result in some neurotic behavior (as discussed above). But keeping my head down and thinking about something so I don't look up seems to be overall the least difficult option and involves the least struggling. (Of course sometimes I'll want to look. This is the third category initially listed above and is just a flavor of lust.)
Sometimes not seeing is not an option (driving, someone right next to you, looking for your wife outside of shul.) As discussed, seeing is not directly linked to looking, and sometimes nothing more will happen. But sometimes you get the drive to look at what you saw, and then it's a fight. And I'm not here to discuss how to fight that fight, but if you lose that fight maybe nothing more will happen. Maybe even most of the time. But sometimes, that sip of lust makes you thirsty. And once you're thirsty maybe the next woman you'll look harder, or you'll click away a little slower. And then before you know it you're riding the lust train straight to hell.

And I guess the part I was feeling down about was actually a familiar feeling. A feeling that I'll need more gedarim and fences than "normal" people. That if I mess up the consequences will be worse. It's a familiar feeling of inadequacy in this area (true or not, that's not the point). It's not a helpful feeling, but if I acknowledge it and accept that I'm okay with always being more on guard if that is what it takes to get clean, then it usually doesn't hang around and bother me.

Anyway. This was alot of words. But that's my take on looking on the street.

chosemyshem wrote on 16 Jun 2024 19:03:

I came to the same conclusion as you. I just did it waaaay before you.