mzl wrote on 01 Aug 2018 22:49:

This is from the Mesillas Yesharim. Sounds relevant.

He who wants to become completely clean of this sin will also require a laboring which is not small. For included in the prohibition is not only the act itself but even all that draws one close to it. This is explicitly stated in scripture: "do not draw near to uncover nakedness" (Vayikra 18:6).

And our Sages said: "Says the Holy One, blessed be He, 'do not say since it is forbidden for me to have intercourse with a woman, I will embrace her and be free of sin, I will caress her and be free of sin, I will kiss her and be free of sin'. Says the Holy One, blessed be He, - 'just like when a Nazir makes a vow not to drink wine, he is also forbidden to eat grapes or raisins, diluted grape juice, or anything derived from the grape vine, so too, for a woman who is not your wife, you are forbidden to touch her in any way. Anyone who touches a woman other than his wife brings death to himself...' " (Shemot Raba 16:2).

Consider how wondrous are the words of this Midrash. For it likens this prohibition with that of the Nazir which even though the primary prohibition of Nazir is only on wine, nevertheless, the Torah forbids him all that is connected to wine. This was a lesson the Torah taught to the Sages how they should "make a fence around the Torah" so that they may use the authority granted to them to enact protections to the Torah.

For they could learn from the Nazir to prohibit all that is connected to the primary prohibition. Thus, the Torah did for this prohibition of Nazir an example of what it authorized the Sages to do for all the other Mitzvot in order to teach that this is G-d's will. So that when G-d prohibits for us some matter, we can deduce the unexplained from the explained (Nazir) to also prohibit all that draws close to the specified prohibition.

In this manner, the Sages prohibited on the matter of forbidden relations all that resembles and draws a person close to forbidden relations, however way that may be, namely, whether it be in deed, in sight, in speech, in hearing or even in thought. I will now bring you some proofs on all this from the words of the Sages of blessed memory.

I suspect that masturbation could not be made a Torah violation because Hashem doesn't torture people.

It may be more of a derech eretz issue. A self-respecting man who wants sex doesn't masturbate, he hires a woman. Like Yehuda with Tamar. He could have avoided it by masturbating but maybe he had too much dignity.

That shows me where I'm at ...

It is forbidden to waste seed. Sulchan Aruch
Yehuda did not wasted seed, but of course broke "intimating with only your wife", in this case a supposedly harlot.
In Yehuda passed an spirit that pushed his desires out of normality in that moment, because the Moshiach had to come from Tamar and Yehuda.
We all fight in our level, to the next level.
Other way around. Because Hashem loves jews, He made it a Torah violation.
Keep winning mzl, you are doing great.

kavod wrote on 02 Aug 2018 02:55:

I still don't get where it's from.

I think it's not by chance that Er and Onan destroyed their seed after using their wife to get aroused and have pleasure. I think that was their averah. I don't think it's same circumstance as a lot of people here are in, including yours truly.

It's an important question. Similar to the question of women covering their hair. I used to have a super shtark Rav who held it was das yehudis. A lot of people think it's a d'oraisa, and some people think it's nothing. My wife covers her hair but I don't think she knows why.

I am a true yid because I managed to piss off the barons of sexual addiction recovery. Don't speak truth to power. Like Avraham avinu, he was on one side and everyone else was on the other side.

I don't think there's a mitzva for a nazir candidate to become a nazir. Never heard of that at all.

I wonder if in Hashem's eyes destroying seed is on a similar level to drinking too much, which makes a person act like a fool.

I think that's it.

I don't think Hashem assurs destroying the seed after you are basically ready to explode.

Regarding speech and thought the Mesillas Yesharim explains it well. It's clear why speech is different than thought, which is why they are addressed differently.

It's very telling that the chachamim were very upset about obscene speech, and all they could come up with as a source was navi. No chumash. That's important.

Also definitive regarding thoughts is that Shlomo hamelech called it an abomination of G-d. That gives me something to go after. Why doesn't Hashem like abominations?

I am starting to see that the problem with getting aroused is that it's not assur but Hashem punishes people for doing it in certain cases. Like what they say about obscene speech.

It's really bad because it's not assur. In some cases we use to Hashem's advantage. How many people here got married because they are sex addicts? And then before you know it's not to Hashem's advantage any more.

I can believe that Hashem watches my thoughts because when I think other sorts of thoughts I get whacked. Like when I think I'd like to donate money and then change my mind, punctually I get socked with some monetary loss.

But I have some difficulty accepting that Hashem expects me to not think about sex because it bothers him personally with no loss to me. I grew up like a goy and became frum in
my thirties. Deep down I'm a sadist, I like hurting women in my imagination. Why am I zoche that the master of the universe should intently listen to my thoughts?

I suppose just keeping Shabbos, keeping kosher, getting married, having kids, spending every dime on a frum life, all the while enduring depression because I couldn't leave my job, et al are enough for Hashem to take an interest. He made a whole world and made people with intelligence and they threw Him out. So I guess observant Jews are pretty relevant for Him.

To me all these achievements look insignificant because of my bipolar problem. So I didn't get it at first. 

Hi mzl,

You must be going on a high speed train. I missed your train of thought, a long while back and can't jump back on. But hey, I'm addicted (at least to reading!). I still read every single word you write. Keep them coming, if it helps you.

lionking wrote on 02 Aug 2018 12:04:

You should be zoche to rule over your addiction like a lion.

I just remembered a great truth, namely that the smartest people are the hardest to manage.

Today I noticed that in this week's parsha it talks about abominations. Hope to go back and look at it.

Day 56

mzl wrote on 02 Aug 2018 12:35:

1- Its hard for me to understand what u wrote above, that you are 'a true yid because you upset the recovery bigshots or 'barons'. Your comment seems petty, at least at first blush. But more importantly, you are again doing what I referred to earlier in an email that I don't feel you dealt with fully enough: you are writing in a way that is designed to get under people's skin. I believe you know this full well and bet that it's the way you deal with most people in your life. By giving people titles ('the barons of sexual recovery') you are more likely to annoy someone. That's not nice and it's not a great way to learn new things, either. Furthermore, coming back to earth a bit, I doubt you pissed anyone off. You just expressed a few controversial opinions - that doesn't upset most basically mature people, especially if it's not about them. Only when you begin giving names and silly titles to people, do you usually 'piss them off' as you put it. You're entirely entitled to act like a kid, but I'm just calling you on it here because I'm sure that an intelligent and analytical man such as yourself will hear these simple suggestions and take them to heart.

But more important to me than all that stuff, is this:
In your post quoted above, you are using the term 'addiction', but I think you don't really mean addiction. I think you really mean 'desire'.

Now, why do you keep doing that, chaver? Addiction is not equated with desire, on many levels. I know that GYE literature and members often interchange them, but that's not what 12 steps literature says, it's not the experience of the addicts I know, and it just muddies the water. 

We can clarify some differences between addicts and non-addicts if you don't know any, if you want. We can also demonstrate many differences between tayvoh/desire as it is described in yiddishkeit vs. addiction as it is described by addicts who use 12 Steps (and by experts in the field of psychology), if you want.

So I suggest that when you mean 'bad/sinful desires', you just call it that. And also that when you mean 'not masturbating/using porn in order to keep halocha' then you would be clearer just calling it that. 

2- Your discussion about the halachik status of masturbating is apt to get lots of attention but is unhelpful for addicts nor even for most non-addicts among this crowd. It is also misleading. This is because our overwhelmingproblem isn't sperm-wasting. Every chronic, fantasizing, masturbater is really aware of this (or can easily be helped to admit it). The 'sperm coming out' is actually the least of our problems...it's just that it's the most hurtful part for many of us because of two reasons:

1- it is incontrovertible proof that we really screwed around and acted out our lust fantasies: stuff came out, something actually happenedthat we can't just ignore or pretend didn't, the way that we swept our porn use under the rug so many times ('click', "Whew, I'm glad that mistake is over!"); 
2- The ejaculation and orgasm end a cycle for us! "The only way we knew to really be free of it was to do it," as SA's white book puts it so well. That being the case, we miss it. We know it's over...at least for a bit. We have bittersweet relief that is mostly bitter.

Our basic problem is behaving idiotic and childishly. We know it's so, because we hide our behavior so deeply. Practically all the married guys among us are even hiding it from our own wives - the person who is supposed to be our most trusted confidant...and who usually thinks she is! We who hide our adventures and failures from our wives and all others, do it for two main reasons:

1- We are terribly embarrassed by the stupidity and childishness of our behavior and of our amazing failure at stopping it; 

2- We are sub consciously aware that if she or anyone close to us would find out just what we are doing and how we are doing it, that publicity would severely jeopardize our access to our past-time...it is very, very precious to us, even more than we realize. So we fiercely protect it, all Teshuva gemura-hopes notwithstanding. 

The guys here who are in some form of recovery (whether 12 Steps or others) and are clean, are always here to help those GYE posters who are finally ready to get real help for their problem. Hiding behind a username and being 'open' with other people who are also hiding behind usernames, is of no long term value. It's essentially like being fully open and honest to a cow. "I'll be honest and open to you because you can't figure out who I am," is not the way to get real help for any real life problems, especially one that involves deeply entrenched, long-term habits. Especially ones that are connected to a thing as deep and confusing as sexuality is!

The way that most non-addicts who are frum deal with this type of problem is often based on Torah, for theirs is essentially a religious issue.  But most addicts who are frum do not succeed based on Torah, for theiri problem is essentially a derech eretz one. And 'derech eretz kodmah laTorah', as chazal tell us. The 12 Steps isn't Torah, but derech Eretz and, as such, it can help many addicts whether they are frum, or not. And they need to be worked in the proper culture, with true openness and honesty together (in-person) with other safe people who truly understand and are clean. This is obvious to serious people who have any real, serious living-problem...they know that they can't get the best help on the phone or from a book, and they try to meet in person with the best people. This is true in yiddishkeit as it is in health, business, or mental health. And addiction is no different. For people who are serious, this is dealt with in a real way, of course.

Hatzlocha considering some of these ideas, and all the best to you, chaver!