Hi MT. As the shulchan aruch writes in sif aleph of hilchos tzniyus- that for a man to be intimate with his wife in order to curb his desire - he will get schar for that. So for a person on these boards to have that intent, thats a great and holy thing to do and should be encouraged, as that is what god had in mind.

Some guys write on this board about how theyre having difficulties with their wives in the bedroom,the answer is not that they should let it go and focus elsewhere, as that is not expected from a regular person. He is supposed to have the bedroom to keep him clean as god intended exactly that.

As an aside, advice that is soothing to someone, is Torahdig and true , drochehu darchei noam, all true advice , is supposed to make someone feel better. If it sounds harsh , rest assured it is wrong and false and not sanctioned by the Torah and by hashem. Rather,the advice should be that the more the person internalizes the concept of being intimate lshem shomayim, aka to keep him clean, the sooner his wife will feel that from him and all will be well. God made women intuitive for the purpose of bettering us and any seeming "obstacles" that the wife puts up, or any other obstacles in life as a whole for that matter, is only there for the person to reach the better place spiritually and by the same token feel good in every other way physically etc. as God is loving and only wants us to have the best of all worlds. All the so called rules that we have in our holy Torah are not there to mitigate the above but rather to improve it.

It says as well in that sif, that there is a even loftier level than this, which entails elevating oneself to the level of not desiring at all,
but that is the quintessential ideal, and is something that should be the eventual goal of all of us, but not to be expected to happen immediately for us regular people. It is something we should strive for.

Sorry . I meant gevura shebyesod

so tell all the women to heck with their moods and headaches and cramps and stress and get with the program and start helpin' their husbands; the husbands want sex and it is their job and mission to keep him clean!

A man should be intimate l'sheim shamayim - to keep him clean!? He should be intimate for that is the expression of love to one's spouse!

I'm sure you also mean l'sheim shamayim.

b'hatzlachah

If I sound too harsh and argumentative, I'm sorry; it's not personal.

If I may add my two sense this is what its about...

Bris means a bond and connection our whole being is to achieve that. Meaning that we need to really have a dipper connection and bond with hashem and if we find sinning our bond or are connected with them we are pogem b'bris.

That's why we find shmiras habris the main purpose of our life to guard that bond with hashem.

Of course a man should be intimate with his wife for a myriad or reasons.All of them lshem shomayim, just as all other actions in life i.e eating, sleeping etc should be lshem shamoyim.

One of them, is as so to express his love to her. That as well is lshem shomayim.

As gd wants us us to show love to our wives. As we know that every single move we make in life is to be lshem shomayim. Showing a wife love is another manifestation of doing actions, thoughts, lshem shomayim.

We should always keep in mind that at the core of it all, the avodah of shmiras habris is at the depth of it all.

you are entitled to your opinion and to your sources.
others are entitled to theirs.
If one can focus on lovin' his wife and carin' for her and concernin' himself with her needs....if that is his only focus durin' intimacy, he will earn a seat near the Kisei HaKavod - even though he didn't think about shmiras habris - not once!

Just my opinion.

hi 9494.
We have 4 parts of the Torah.Pardes. The gemoro and rishonim and shulchan aruch etc. etc, are pshat. R shimon bar yochai revealed the Sodos Hatorah,the part of -samech- sod- the fourth part of the Torah in his Zohar. This was followed by the Arizal, his rebbees and his talmidim like R, Chaim Vital, and then continued by the Baal Shem Tov and his talmidim. The reason it is called Sod , is precisely that, it is a sod and is hidden deep in the Torah. It requires our holy sages to uncover and reveal, thats why when we learn on our level the Torah, we are not privy to the sod part,and is not apparent to us at all, and thats what Kabbalh and sisrei/sodos Torah are there to teach us.

Sodos Hatorh teaches us that shmiras habris is hidden beneath it all.

sonoftheking wrote:


Agreed!

b'hatzlachah

agreed as well

bhatzlacha as well

I the humble and unlearned unanumun have decided to put in my two cents into this thread after some internal debate.
I think that it is true that the sources you bring down are saying that the entire world was created for shmiras habris and the apparent understanding that everyone else that doesn't have an active male organ are all along for the ride or whatever explanation you choose to wiggle through. (I haven't seen the sources but I trust you)
That being said, anyone who opens a zohar and takes what he sees at face value is destined to err.
The entire toras hanistar is written bederch remez and mashal.
While definitely there is a tremendous chashivus to shmiras habris, to put the entire meaning of life surrounding the importance of making sure you don't act out and be motzi zera levatala is a bit chiddush.
We have not seen our tzadikim that we look up to not in this generation and not in previous generations, making this the main focus of their avoda. Of course it could be that they did in private but if that was the main focus of their avoda, I am sure that they would have let the word out a bit.
Now it is true that the tzadikim get to the dargas they do , through kedusha. But that is a much more encompassing concept than just making sure you don't masturbate, watch porn, or not look at women in the street. It includes kesushas hamachshava, kedushas haachila and more.
what is supposed to be our focus in life?
Perhaps getting closer to HAshem through learning his Torah and practicing his mitzvohs. Perhaps just to learn more and more Torah. Perhaps shleymus haadam - to perfect all out character flaws.
I don't know enough to give a clear answer. but it could be when the sefarim hakedoshim refer to shmiras habris they are referring to all of the above as a collective concept.
Maybe i am right maybe I am wrong. but that is my two cents.

Hi guys. I like your posts.
The holy Baal Shem tov was mechadesh to us that the time has arrived that of which Toras Hasod should be revealed to the masses. As we know that he learnt with Achiyo Hashiloni all of the chelkei Hatorah. As we know the famous question that The Besht asked Eliyahu Hanovi, Eimosei Ko'osi Mar? and he answered him, lksheyfutzu mayenosechu chutza.

The idea of not delving into sod and operating with pshat as had been the case, was no longer.It was revealed to to Arizal and on, that as the generations were getting closer to Moshiach, we were allowed and required to use Toras hasod as our Modis Operandi. We were already in the realm of the revelation and therefore, pnimius Hatorah was to guide every single jew more and more. We also needed it more than in the previous generations, because the generations get weaker and weaker, as we get further and further away from the time of Matan Hatorah. That is why the Baal shem tov taught that the only way a jew can really survive and thrive is through utilizing Kabbalah and chasidus etc, that is what the Baal shems tov mission was down here.

Chasidus and kabbalh taught us how everything is to be viewed in its deeper sense.
It teaches us that everything is inherently positive. When a jew falls, that is for the greater good. They teach us that, it is not only that we seek redemption to get out of this exile, but much more than that. The entire golus is here so that the redemption will be that much greater. It is not to be viewed that something went wrong, and we ended up in golus and now we are looking for a way out, but to the contrary, the exile was planned initially as that is a requisite to the tikkun hasholem. It is precisely the way it was meant to be. This goes on and on etc, This teachings open our eyes and infuses us with love to god, and becomes reciprocal.

We learn that we are not fighting the yetser hora.We learn that the yetser hora is called "tov meod" as it is a tool for us to be elevated. We learn that- Ein od milvado- there is nothing besides hashem. He disguises himself as many things. Yetser hora is one of them. Falls are another. Diseases, addictions,battles,confrontations,problems and every other seeming negative thing. Its all him. Therefore its inherently good. Ein od Milvado. The masks are him as well. We are a part of him. Our neshomo is a part of him. Thats what we say in Shir hamaalos, we were like in a dream."Huyinu Kcholmim. When we wake up when moshaich arrives,and chasidus and Kaballa instucted us to begin doing that already in our times, we will laugh our heads off, as it says in the kapital, cuz we will realize that it was like when someone wakes up after a nightmare.He thrashes and cries out and goes nuts etc, then he wakes up.

Its like an infant viewing the goings on around him, but being clueless as to what is actually happening. We will realize then that we had no clue and we didnt see anything. We are to internalize the above constantly.

The same seforim teach us about the core of being attached to hashem via protecting his bris with us. That is what the shovavim parshiyos are about. That is what the possuk in nach that says "shuvu bonim shovavim" means. That is why throughout the generations, thousands upon thousands of holy jews would sit by shalesh seudos (the highest point of the shabos and the entire week)with their rebbees and cry to hashem and get close to him. The whole divrei Torah would evolve around shmiras habris. This picture repeated itself throughout poland and other countries for years and years.

One more anecdote if I may. The Gerrer rebbee ( I think it was the Imrei Emes) and the Vishnitzer rebbee, the Ahavas yisorel were close friends and held each other in high esteem. This was ironic, as their styles in Avodas hashem were polar opposites. When the Gerrer Rebbe was asked for the explanation of this unusual friendship, he responded with the following.

The two of them had once attended simultaneously a levaya of the world famous famous gaon and tzadik, The Abir Haroim. One maspid after another was extolling the many virtues of this gaon and tzadik of the greatest stature. His Torah, his Tzidkus, His chesed, middos his dveykus bashem and on and on, the Vishnitzer Rebbee turned to the Gerrer Rebee and asked him. Why are there such lengthy eulogies? They should just say that he was a shomer habris, and no need to add anything else? This comment is what the Gerrer rebee said, laid the foundation for their unusually close and unconventional relationship.

from Dov:

I have never been able to stay sober as long as I was channeling my lust to my wife, and know no one else who is. I assume you know that it always backfires and understand all that.

But I want to hijack this for a minute to reflect on an issue that actually exists eslewhere.

There have been many discussions on the forum (some rather heated, over the years) because some folks (usually guys who are not sober themselves but ready to advise others, and often probably non-addicts-in-the-first-place) are dying to convince people that the Torah 100% encourages pouring all one's lust into their wife...the metaphor is rather sickening, actually, because that is exactly what is physically happening for them...eeew.. I wonder how these wives feel about themselves being used a holy toilet bowl for their husband's irresponsible playing with himself just before it c"v goes too far, if you know what I mean...I presume that under the 'mesiras nefesh for kedushas haBris', they know they are betrayed and demeaned. But I digress.

So instead of talking as though I were a talmid Chochom, all I will say as an addict is this:
That method does not work at all. (Personally, I think it masquerades as Torah, but is really just evil.)

You are not saying it does, chaver, I know that. I am just speaking out here for the frum guys who may wander onto this forum here and read this - maybe they will not like what they see when I hold up the mirror. They are more concerned with 'Kedushas haBris' than with what really works to get a person to it. Some seem to be bleeding-heart sperm-savers who are so blinded by saving people from sin that they miss the forest for the trees. Kedushas haBris eclipses the preciousness of a poor addict learning how to succeed at living a kosher and healthy life. Loading a boy with shocking guilt that could lead him to depression and suicide is less of a concern to some than the tragedy of all that sperm he is spilling...

So they look favorably on channeling all your lust into your wife...after all, Chaza"l do say "a wife saves a man from sin" - isn't this how?; and Rebbe Nachman said that the earlier one gets married the better, for it saves him from sin of masturbation (really he was probably mainly referring to wet dreams, but ok...) - so they really figure that a screwed up marriage is OK, as long as it will save this poor boy from spilling seed or lusting after other women. Seriously? A kid who is already masturbating himself to porn he is already watching on the computer of people having sex - he is going to be able to remain faithful to his wife, control his yetzer hora, and remain in a functional marriage? No, he will probably not. Now it's suicidal for two people - and their kids will probably end up addicts from such a twisted home. It's religious selfishness, nothing more.

Hey. What was that? A rant? Oh....sorry.

It seems to me that in our generation, particularly among young men who are already struggling with sex desires and pornography use, there is one great benefit that is derived from focusing totally on Shmiras haBris all the time:

It allows them to think about sex all day long, and still be frum...and actually feel holier than most others, too.



It may work for a few, but for most it is just (very religious) poison. So I suggest one watches out for the banner of 'Kedushas haBris'.

The question here is in healthy application of Torah, not in veracity of sources. Living with the right priorities will almost always succeed, while a focus on keeping an ideal without healthy prioritization usually fails miserably and leads to a strange, twisted - albeit very holy-looking - life.

Peddling Kedushas haBris and sex l'Shem Shomayim to a generation where virtually nothing we do is l'Shem Shomayim is, I think, a grossly misplaced priority. The great, primary pain we frum porn users and masturbaters have is that we know we are fakers and are terribly confused. The main problem is not that we are sinning, but that we are living a double life. That is what would drive Yosef haTzaddik crazy about us were he to see us here and now, it seems. But instead of helping us gain precious self-honesty, such a derech encourages running with self-deception: To actually sell people the lie that they are 'really working on l'Shem Shomayim in sex' (especially by self-serving things like explaining to their wives that they have part of the responsibility to satisfy them!) - before they have elevated any other of their much simpler life activities to that level?! No way is that self-honest. And I am not even talking about Lust here, but just sex. Sexuality is clearly a thing that naturally moves us far more deeply and viscerally than even eating does (see the Zohar on that, BTW). I suggest that it's just nahrishkeit to claim l'Shem Shomayim will occur in sex first, at all. And instead of progressing in it, it is far more likely that we will just be practicing the old art of using and abusing it long before we will be doing anything l'Shem Shomayim. But the dream of beating and acheiving it davka in sex does appeal strongly to the adolescent in us all, no? Why?

As they say in the advertising industry: "Sex sells!"

Same here for religion: Kedushas haBris sells, doesn't it...

So we need a lot of caution in trying to assume l'Shem Shomayim motives to a power far from our true control. I encourage people to work on humbler goals and more practical actions than stuff that is just between him and his wife, or between him and his G-d. The guy who starts to admit clearly and honestly to another real and safe recovering person exactly what they have been doing to themselves for the past ten years...he will be the one let out of the prison like Yosef haTzaddik was. He will be the one to start taking the real actions to grow in self-honesty first, religious stuff second. And he will therefore end up with an honest, true religious life. Ashreinu!

So Derech Eretz kodmah laTorah again, it seems.

I think that it seems that some people are confused over and over again by what the Torah means when it says to channel a persons tayvos into his wife. They think that the Torah is somehow encouraging to be lustful when lauding the concept of channeling the lust towards his wife. I can see how that can hypothetically confuse someone. When anyone posts this thought of channeling towards ones wife, the confusion continues and once again can get misconstrued to mean that theres a green light to contiune being lustful.

Of course thats not what the Torah means, and the same goes for when the Torah is being quoted. We should try to not add or diminish from the Torahs words and stick to to the actual words themselves without our own personal interpretations.

So once again, The Torah is saying in shulchan aruch-
1)that when people are lustful, they are encouraged to channel it towards their wives.

2)At the same time, they should be working on gradually diminish their lust. The two go hand in hand. The first mission is way easier than the second one. The first mission is for every jew in his day to day functions, the second mission is a gradual work in progress that takes a lifetime, and even then, its to the extent that the person merits.

If and when we see that a person knowing and learning the above, somehow manages to get confused into thinking that the above can be misleading and turn a person away from the proper path, to that the possuk says-

Tzadikim yeilchu vim, upoishim yikushlu bom.

The fact that one thinks to him himself, that somehow by having the holy torahs words known to all sorts of individuals, wil have the opposite effect, that is of no concern to us. Tzadikim yeilchu bum, urshoim yikushlu bom.

The same concept is in the words- zocho naseis loi sam hachaim, and chas vsholom the opposite.