I do not think i understand how to look at acting out. I have read on the forum that one is supposed to look at acting out as the worst thing and should avoid it at all costs before hand but then if c"v you fall then you should look at it as though Hashem wanted it to happen. But if this is so then what is the point of ever doing teshuva for this sin? Is it even a sin? Why should I do teshuva?

I think there are some thoughts about this in the Q & A section, but I can't find them that quickly.

I'm not sure that I agree with the sentiment that "if c"v you fall then you should look at it as though Hashem wanted it to happen". Like you said, if so, why bother with teshuva?

It is certainly a serious aveira. There are many mekoros to this fact. However, for many of us, to focus on that fact, especially after a fall, leads to depression, which leads to more acting out. On the other hand, if we view as "not so bad" before a fall - it can also lead to acting out since "hey, it's not that bad".

The Y"H uses this on us all the time. Before a fall, he says, "no big deal". Afterwards, he says "you are a menuval and a rasha". We need to have the reverse attitude. Before a fall, say "how can I do something so low"? After a fall c'v, acknowledge that we made a mistake, we are human and move on. Try to do things that will prevent a fall in the future.

The facts don't change, only the attitude.

There is one more point which is that many of us became addicted before we had real bechira to choose otherwise. There may have been factors that contributed to the addiction that were beyond our control. Acknowledging that it may not have been our fault that we became this way, can relieve some guilt and help us heal. Again, none of this is meant to condone it. The ultimate goal is to live free of this obsession/addiction.

Does that make sense?

Gibbor
Ditto

I don't recall seeing that it says here that Hashem wanted it to happen.
you just cannot focus on it; you need to move on.

Yes, the sin was severe and we are lower because of it, but Hashem wants us to will our way out of it; we are bent, not broken - we can learn to live again.

have a good Shabbos pinchas

Pinchas wrote:


A wise man (if that's what Dov is) has proclaimed (in his signature):

"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"

Let's forget about teshuva at this point. First let's get our life in order. Maybe once we clear the fog out of our thick skulls, we'll be able to see things a bit clearer.

MT

Let's forget about teshuva at this point. First let's get our life in order. Maybe once we clear the fog out of our thick skulls, we'll be able to see things a bit clearer.

well said!

its the y"h's ploy of convincing us that we cannot do a full teshuvah, and He does not want to accept it or hear from us

Addiction is an illness. Even if i wasn't a believing Jew, even if i was to live before Matan Toireh etc it would still be a problem for me.

When i treat it as illness then i start to get recovery. Thats what works for me. For many many years it was a Yiddishkeit problem, and i couldn't make any headway in recovery (or teshuva).

Right I hear what youre saying. tell me if I am right? its a big sin and we do not want to do it again. But we know that when we get depressed and down on ourselves and feel guilty than we are going to do it again. So basically it makes no sense to feel badly about yourself in this situation if it isnt going to lead to you doing better in this regard later on? right?

Yup, first get out of the mud. For most of us, feeling bad is just a recipe to end up back in the mud. It just doesn't work.

Ok thank you so much I really appreciate the help...

Well written!

Just wanted to think out loud, from Pinchas's post it sounded like there was some good in the depression/ guilt that we feel after falling, just that it's not helpful because it will cause us to fall again. I would venture to say that the depression that we feel afterwards does not really have to do with the fall at all, rather it was there beforehand just covered with the lust, and after we act out and the image of pleasure that we had in our minds shatters, it comes back with its all.

So too the guilt, it is for being sucked into that dream that this time it will make me happy, and when it doesn't work we feel guilty for falling into the same stupid trap again.

Just a thought, feel free to disagree

(you may want to look here where he talks about not becoming depressed after falling)

if its true that there is always depression before falling, or at least many times, shouldn't the main method be to work on not getting depressed in the first place?

I know that could be difficult, but so is any other way of stopping.

I was thinking back to my own issues, and at times (perhaps even more), it was from a momentary depression, so to speak...not a longlasting one. just some sort of trigger. if that is the case by others, then it is not necessarily treatable so well, for its not really depression.

on the other hand, some of the handbook methods teach us that one gets depressed - even slightly, when things don't go his way. that is because one is self-centered. if one works on himself to always be in a "giving" frame of mind, and not a "taker," perhaps, and most probably, he can even avoid the momentary depressions.

some of the above should make some sort of sense....I think.

I do not know if other people resonate with what you just said but that is exactly how I feel and I really appreciate the way you put it into words when I could not.

No problem
Hope it is productive

It was for me