took me a minute. thanks for the laugh!

i guess this should be on the 'having-fun' board.you know about that? it seems our leader has thought of everything-

lol

here i go again - i dont mean to INSULT, so if i do, i'm sorry - that is not my intent at all, but sometimes it happens, accidentally well, it often happens.
ok, so go to an airport, or a bus stop, or any place where there is a large number of people waiting for something - a flight, a bus, a train, or ON the bus waiting to get to their stop. what are 90 percent of the people doing? they're looking at their (ok, no snyde remarks jack) iphones, or uphones, or he-phones or, well u know what i mean. why do all these people need to communicate with someone every second of their existence? why do they need constant stimulation? it's like r' twerski in the whirlpool (see earlier on this thread). what would happen if they would go a few minutes (ok, a few seconds) without communicating with someone? answer -> anxiety.and for us (yes, of course me included) what would happen if we went without the extreme stimulation that porn gives us? answer -> anxiety.cant we just take a walk and look at the flowers? sounds corny, ok. but what's the alternative? we have to have high stimulation in order to be anxiety-free.or do we? but on a different level, isn't learning Torah stimulating? ok, not like porn obviously.but everyone here is a talmid chochom.in fact, the bigger the talmid chochom, the stronger the addiction!
we (I) have to switch my source of stimulation.lower myself down and expect less extreme physical stimulation and more extreme spiritual stimulation. NOT AN EASY TASK.takes work.but with practice, who knows?
jack

what do i mean by submitting? in a frum person's mind what they do in por* movies is disgusting, right? well, not to me.what they do there is glorious.now, would i roll in mud? no way, it's disgusting.but to someone who's addicted to rolling in mud like a pig, it's glorious, right? so how do i get out of this addiction and learn to see that p* and mast* is disgusting? am i ever going to learn that they are disgusting? probably not.so what to do? rely on what everybody else is saying - even though it doesn't make sense to us.because intellectually, we know they are right.like dov says, we CANNOT rely on our own thinking - it will only get us in trouble.
jack

it may be difficult to submit.if we are feeling low about ourselves, submitting may be damaging to our ego.we first have to feel like a something before we can feel like submitting.
we first have to feel like a something before we feel like a nothing.

It's not the same as a pig rolling in mud. The pig can't see anything negative on any level, about rolling in mud. It'f fully wonderful for him. We, on the other hand, can understand with our sechel that although there is a taava - a pull, intellectually we know that there is something rather disgusting about it. To be 'osek' with the smelliest dirtiest part of someone's body. Do we enjoy changing a baby's full diaper or do we want it over and done with asap and then we vigorously wash our hands. And if you think about it, the baby is less repulsive than an adult. And when you think of the company and the lowness and the 4 letter words you want to say [b]GET ME OUT OF HERE![b] And after the taavah is released and we have a 'sober' moment, do we think it's glorious? No we don't! So we ourselves without hearing it from anyone else, know that it really isn't glorious, only there is a nature of some sort that pulls us there. So we therefore wish that we could always live with our sechel and foresight and not allow the 'pull' to make us do what we know is disgusting and will at a more sober moment make us feel full of regret and shame.

yes - INTELLECTUALLY we know something is wrong with it.but on a body level, the level of the senses, at least for me, i want it, badly. and the only thing that keeps me away from it is what OTHERS say about it.the ONLY thing. this is what I have learned in my 6 1/2 years here. i only speak for myself.
jack

I have a hard time believing that. Do you always listen to others? Or only when really it's you who agree with them.

good question.it takes me a long time to get to the stage where i can listen to others - and it's not just ANYBODY i will listen to.anyway, we have a command to be mevatel our will in front of Hashem's will - not an easy task.in fact, I only realized how important this is after being on GYE. r' twerski says that addicts are, in some way, lucky, because they (we) are forced to examine themselves (ourselves) otherwise their lives will be a mess.
So, how do i decide who to listen to? well, look at someone who has experience, like dov. if he says our own thinking got us nowhere - i believe him.he's not trying to steer us in the wrong direction - i have come to that conclusion.do you not agree? or our leader, reb guard - you think he's trying to steer us in the wrong direction? these are people who have love for us and they are doing what they're doing for no personal gain or honor. to me, that's a person I will put my trust in.of course, trusting in Hashem is the highest form of trust, because Hashem has ABSOLUTELY NO personal interest - He needs nothing.I have found the sponsors from SA or any of the 12 step groups have nothing personal to gain. ok, they are humans and might have a slight, very slight honor from doing what they're doing - whereas Hashem has NONE whatsoever.
it has taken me a long time to get to this stage, and I'm still not perfect - but I'm working on it.
do you believe it now?

No. Of course you trust the people you mentioned. You also know that Hashem who says it's disgusting and an abomination is right so that should be enough and yet... But the reason you are trying to recover is not because any body else says so. It's because YOU know that it really isn't glorious and that it's bad and destructive. So then you use your will to change and you find people like those you mentioned to advise you and you follow them. But it IS and MUST ALWAYS BE you who want to recover and change.

"or our leader, reb guard - you think he's trying to steer us in the wrong direction?"

May I ask to what you are referring?

Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:


What should I say that i haven't said before?
I have very little of those feelin's mentioned above.

jack wrote:


I picked this post, but I don't understand several of your posts.
You are stoppin' because of what others say!?
And then you mix in God!
Is God not enough?
What do these others say?
Dov and Guard do not say all the same things!?

Nowhere in the 12 step program does it say to stop because someone else told you to.
Before you start the program, it is suggested pretty strongly that you come to the conclusion that your life in unmanageable in its present state.
Do you need someone to convince you of that?

My problem - at times - is I forget, and i kinda convince myself that i could figure it out to be manageable.

Speakin' just for myself.
hatzlachah on your recovery

Cords, I agree with you. But what you say that you forget and kinda convince yourself etc..
That I think is due to some underlying unhappiness which makes you want to find some other way, even such that really you know is unmanageable. So then what you need at that time is a good pep talk, but a real good one from someone who can really get you into a happier and more hopeful frame of mind.

If you have someone like that.