I haven't used this method, but from what I gather, when you see a woman and feel yourself lusting after her, you should pray for her well being in some way.  This changes your perception of her from an object to a real person with real needs etc. and the lust subsides.

Blind Beggar wrote on 08 Nov 2011 10:21:


[quote="Blind Beggar]
If I see a woman as an object I am powerless over lust, [b]but I don't have to look.[/b]
[/quote]

Blind Beggar, I don't envy the position you are in, and I can't say how I would handle it.  But it reminds me of the story along the lines of the Rebba and his gabbai who see a girl stuck in a pit and the rebba pulls the girl out as the gabbai looks on in horror that the rebba is touching the girl.  After continuing on the way the gabbai asks whether it was okay for the Rebba to carry the girl out.  The rebba responds I carried her for a few seconds you've been carrying her for the past two miles. 
The fact that Hashem sent these two woman in your life is beyond your control.  You don't control the world Hashem does and in His infinite he has put them near you.  So their presence is a reality.  If you have to interact with them you do.  The same way you would interact with a male co-worker.  You wouldn't be checking out the male co-workers legs, checking out their legs means that they have some hold over you.  As if their legs give them a certain power.  And if that happens, that means that you are carrying them with you.  On a similar note I get the sense that you are carrying around Gila and Sara with you all do.  Sounds like a heavy load.   
I hope this doesn't come off as pontificating, as I said I'd not be in a good place if I were in your shoes.  And I think that all things considered, you are doing great under the circumstances.  Continued hatzlacha. 

I am carrying those two around and it is a burden. I am drawn to look, as we all are on this forum. I know I don't have to look and I do guard my eyes in general because that is what I really want to do. I am going to try not to deify them and not to worry when my anatomy works as it is supposed to.


It's been a long day. Good night.

A couple of brief thoughts from a fellow goofball:
1. Blind Beggar, your sitch would be tough for me to handle, so you're a special neshomo for being given this nisoyon.
2. UAJ, this is the best chassidishe ma'ase in a very long time! I'll be repeating it often when pretedning that I am one of the normal guys.
3. Dov! >  My G-d!
dov wrote on 09 Nov 2011 17:49:

You make a bunch of beautiful points about the pedestal, and deifying and such, and then you just careen off and start piling on!
All books on taharas mishpocho have a huge disclaimer:
Even if handing things over to your wife DOES NOT turn YOU on, you must nevertheless observe takonas chachomim and NOT pass from hand to hand (or any other detail of harchokois). I hope the nimshal is muvon:
Experience (which is your G-d, if I may make an observation) shows that using a woman's first name enhances the possibility of using her as an object of sexual fantasy. That's why all strippers have first names; all pictures on all websites are named; all spam emails are signed by a first name.
Of course, just because I use a first name in a work setting, doesn't mean I will mentally rape this person as soon as I'm alone. But as an addict in a challenging situation, I must take all precautions not to allow my sick mind to wonder, especially when experience shows that it is a real possibility.
Yeah, we're all looking forward to the day when, from the height of our 13-year sobriety, we will laugh at these challenges.
But as one sharing addict to another, it would serve me well to remember hilchois yichud, and derech eretz, and harchokois and all those other things put in place by the loving G-d and his Rabbinic advisors to help me overcome my urges, and not take exception to them because of my newly found wisdom.

I have not wanted to masturbate so much for a few months but after a few emails and calls to GYE chevra I had a clean night. Thank you, you know who you are.
Don't you guys have even worse problems than me every day? No one here is dressing davka to turn men on but I bet in Tel Aviv, London and LA it is much worse.
Sarah is wearing thick winter stockings and has her long blonde hair up in a bun so she is fairly easy to deal with today. I spoke to Gila and was very helpful with no untoward feelings or natural reactions.

Will keep you informed.

Please forgive the hijacking here by me, BB.

obormottel wrote on 09 Nov 2011 23:03:


OK, so it's not. And you do not know me. Apparently I am a free target. Maybe when enough people say nice things to a person, it becomes fair for others to write stuff to them like "your own experience seems to be your G-d," and to imply to me that I think a halocha is shortsighted or stupid.

If I understand what you wrote correctly, then you misunderstood what I wrote completely and I feel hurt by how far off you misrepresented me. So obviously, I still have a huge and sensitive ego. If I had less of an ego, I'd be fine, but Hashem is still trying to help me get there.

So forgive me for being caustic, but I feel I have the right to defend myself here.

I only wanted to say that there is a popular misconception that these halachos are based on the assumption that men are sex-crazed weaklings who will probably end up seducing or raping someone if they are left alone with them. Such an assumption about the harchoka of yichud (and other similar ones) is patently nuts, and Chaza"l never said such a thing. You never said such a thing, either, I bet. So there is probably no argument about the fact that this is not what hilchos yichud and other harchakos is really about.

There are people who are not frum who look at these halachos and believe that Judaism must look at all men as incredible perverts and rapists. And can you blame them? They do not understand that these halachos serve more purposes than just one, and the main one is Kedusha - not preventing unwanted pregnancies. And I maintain that addicts cannot use halachos yichud as a pure guide for themselves - they need more gedarim because the halachos are not written for sick people, but for the entire klal Yisroel (who are b"H mostly healthy!). Twisting halocha into a pure guide for addicts is misusing it and it does not work. This should not surprise any honest ehrlicher yid, though, for there are many precedents for it. And the extra harchakos may not look like harchakos to the person ignorant of addiction, but they do work for many addicts. And to me, that is a better guide for what Hashem wants from me, than what people may think is right.

I have witnessed gedolei Torah using first names to women on the phone, and even asking b'shlom isha, when it is appropriate. But assuming that I am making fun of the halachos of yichud is just not knowing me, at all. This area needs to be understood and true da'as Torah is not as poshut bizmaneinu as you may like to make it.

And about "Experience (which is your G-d, if I may make an observation)", I want to say this:

Your belief in G-d is in a book? Is your belief in G-d in the Torah? I think not. The entire Chovos halevavos was written to get Hashem OUT of the Torah and INTO our hearts - which is the only place emunah has any value. And please - by "in our hearts," we all know that means "our experience". Pretending that any person believes "whatever that book over there says," is just silly. Few of us really know all the ins and outs of correct faith yet. Are we apikorsim till we do? I am not asking halocha of you, just simple truth: what is emunah? Is it purely technical, being getting the facts exactly right, and that's it? It can't be.

So we learn the Torah to learn a little bit about G-d, and about what He is not - yet then the Zoh"K tell us that "leis machshovah t'fisah bei klal"! So what is this belief and in what G-d? Do you or any of us really know all that is written in the 13 ikkarim and internalize it properly? Are you aware that there is a deep machlokes rishonim (actually ge'onim) about what some ikkarim actually are? But all this is peripheral to my point.

No, I am not trying to say that emunah is a meaningless and personally defined. It is certainly defined by the Torah and only by the Torah. But the useful part of the the emunah - the malchus of it, for those who know what i mean - is b'leiv. And the Maharal basically defines leiv as your personal awareness. I think leiv is created and formed - not by a sefer, but by your and my personal experience. And I think that they are one and the same. Is what I am writing about here making any sense to you? So in a funny way, you are not far off the mark...

And as far as the "strippers first names thing" goes, how many strippers do you know? I knew a few. And their names were fake...like the usernames here on GYE. They are a buffer to reality. And it is precisely the fact that men know these women and their names are all fake that makes the women so attractive for using them impersonally. The unspoken anonymous-ness and fake-ness of the relationship and of the sex is what allows the fantasy aspect to flourish! I know that if patrons would see and know the woman truly - knew she is preoccupied with worry about the root canal she needs tomorrow afternoon, knew the baby the 'sweet goddess' was trying to support, how she struggles to make ends meet, and that has no real love in her life (that is, no real man and no real G-d), her frailty and humanity would ruin the entire game.

And finally,
was not a nice thing to say. I am only sober today. I am not fooled by the worshippers  of me or my sobriety date - and I never asked anyone to consider me different than them. I am as much an addict and just as powerless as the guy that just saw his hooker (virtual or real) yesterday. I am not "strong". Too bad people here just do not get it, but that is not about to become my problem. If my apikorsishe-sounding presence bothers you and you want me off your thread then that's OK. I need to practice shutting up, anyway.

Hi B.B.

I completely relate with what you are going through, I have had similar experiences, obviously with a different "twist" because of what my problem is....

There's a young guy here at work that I was totally crushed on since the day he started here. He works in a different part of the building but i was always finding excuses to go over there and get an eyeful or even say hi....I fantasized about him endlessly and always wished and hoped that he would notice me....

When I started working on my recovery I made an effort to avoid him completely for a while. Just seeing his face was too much....Eventually I was able to see him and say good morning without a bad reaction. But lately i have actually gotten to know him better as a person and I can now interact with him almost normally. I guess i have become used to and "desensitised" to his presence. And I look at him as fellow human being, with his own life which is completely separate from mine, and not as a toy, an object for my entertainment and lust. It really works.

BTW a while back I worked at a frum place where they had an official policy that all members of the opposite gender were to be addressed as Mr./Mrs./Ms. So-an-So. I thought it was a great idea, although I found it weird at first to constantly be called "Mr. Shebyesod". Of course this policy did nothing to help me...

So hang in there. In the beginning there's always the "WOW" factor, but eventually you will be used to them and they will just fade into the background if you don't constantly dwell on their looks. And as you get to know them you will begin to appreciate them as people, and it will be so much easier.

Hatzlacha and KOMT!!!!

Gevura!

I had so much stress at work today that I didn't have time to lust. Let's hope it gets really cold and Sarah keeps those warm stockings on.
One day at a time, really and truly.

The WOW factor has been with me for 30 years and still has not gone away. Just that then the only girls who made me go WOW were under the age of 16. Now I go WOW with millions more women from 16 to 46.

Blind Beggar wrote on 10 Nov 2011 14:47:

Let's hope you just put them down and out of your mind this way we don't have to have a winter of the G&S daily wardrobe report. 
Hatzlacha

The UAJ dude says it like it is.

Hi BB.  Sorry, even tzniyusdik clothing reports do bad things in my mind.  I really do wish you hatzlocha on this issue.  The workplace is tough.  Luckily, my workplace isn't that bad (relatively), but I definitely have to be careful.

gibbor120 wrote on 11 Aug 2011 13:48:



Faces trigger me a lot more than @#$s in thick &%^$&*(). I guess Hashem makes each one of us differently. Wishing you hatzlocho in your struggles, Gibbor120.

eilu veilu in a twisted kind of way .  I think the face does tend to remind us more that there is a person inside the flesh.  Looking at flesh, just reminds us of flesh.  Panim actually comes from penim.  The face is the gateway to a persons real self.  We can see how someone is feeling for example by the look on their face.  The panim reveals the p'nim.  Granted, it too can be a trigger.

KOT! & KOP! (Keep On Posting)

Hi BB,
glad you're keeping away from the stocking stuffers
KUTGW