trueme wrote on 01 Jul 2025 01:57:

That’s precisely my point.

This widespread "turn the other cheek" idea — where forgiveness is preached as the automatic and ideal response — is, in my view, mistaken. Not only that, but the phrase “I’m moichel you,” which is tossed around so casually today, likely accomplishes very little, halachically or emotionally.

Here’s the language of the Mechaber in Choshen Mishpat 422: החובל בחבירו אע"פ שנתן לו ה' דברים אינו מתכפר לו עד שיבקש ממנו וימחול לו ואסור לנחבל להיות אכזרי מלמחול כי אין זה דרך זרע ישראל אלא כיון שבקש ממנו החובל ונתחנן לו פעם ראשונה ושניה וידוע שהוא שב מחטאו וניחם מרעתו ימחול לו וכל הממהר למחול הרי זה משובח ורוח חכמים נוחה הימנו

To me, it’s clear: the derech Yisrael is not to be mochel automatically before real teshuvah has occurred. Of course, one may choose to forgive anyway, and that can be a high level. But it’s not demanded or expected halachically. And it comes after a lot of inner work.

The nightly tefillah you mention, from Megillah 28a, "כל דצער לי מחילנא ליה", is a midas chassidus. We don’t know if mar zutra was referring to those who apologized or not. Even if he meant all offenders, it likely referred to daily interpersonal friction, not serious and repeated abuse or trauma.

As for asking mechilla erev YK, it likely fits more in the spirit of Yom Kippur, a day of achdus and cleansing. See levush... With regards to tefilla zaka the hope is that with the spirit of the day one will be able to utter those words and mean it. But it's not a chiyuv and again the mashmoas is on aveiros that are not known (besides for the chutz) The emphasis in halacha is on asking for forgiveness so that others may forgive. The halachic obligation is still for the offender to seek mechilah, not for the victim to offer it unconditionally.

Ultimately, this discussion is less about whether forgiveness is good, of course, ideally, we want to reach a place of peace. It’s about whether there's an obligation to get there prematurely, without an attempt for reconciliation, and whether pushing that can cause more harm than healing. Specifically the thought process some bochurim come away with; that Hashem wont forgive them unless they forgive is very harmful and a real chillul Hashem.

Each person has their own journey. I fully agree with you that there is tremendous healing and bliss in true acceptance and emunah, but that can’t be rushed or forced on someone still in the thick of their pain.

 And we have to be real with ourselves and realize if we are still angry that we are allowed to be human.

bright wrote on 01 Jul 2025 04:57:

Disagree on the halachic aspect. If you verbally forgive someone without actually forgiving them and letting go, all you're doing is setting yourself up to be oiver on lo sisna. That is to say, just like being mafkir your car will make your car hefker no matter what you are thinking in your head in all likelihood forgiveness works the same way. A declaration is binding. 

And of course once you're moichel someone and lose your halachic right to be angry, continuing to hate them will be a violation of lo sisna. 

I'm not just trying to add to the stress I'm agreeing with your well said recognition of the essential need to be honest with ourselves and to accept that we're human and allowed to be hurt. Denying or rejecting that is only making the problem worse. 
As Rav Gad'l Eisner would say in a similar context, "people want to be angelic and the first thing they do is become inhuman." 

רמבם הלכות דעות ו:ה-ו:

כל השונא אחד מישראל בלבו עובר בלא תעשה שנאמר לא תשנא את אחיך בלבבך. ואין לוקין על לאו זה לפי שאין בו מעשה. ולא הזהירה תורה אלא על שנאה שבלב. אבל המכה את חבירו והמחרפו אע"פ שאינו רשאי אינו עובר משום לא תשנא:

כשיחטא איש לאיש לא ישטמנו וישתוק כמו שנאמר ברשעים ולא דבר אבשלום את אמנון מאומה למרע ועד טוב כי שנא אבשלום את אמנון. אלא מצוה עליו להודיעו ולומר לו למה עשית לי כך וכך ולמה חטאת לי בדבר פלוני. שנאמר הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך. ואם חזר ובקש ממנו למחול לו צריך למחול. ולא יהא המוחל אכזרי שנאמר ויתפלל אברהם אל האלהים:

You see clearly from the Rambam that there is an obligation not to hate your brother in your heart but rather you should go over to him and reprimand him for hurting you, and if he asks for forgiveness you are obligated to forgive him. There is no mention of forgiving the person before he asks for forgiveness. As I mentioned, abusers are usually in denial and they won't admit what they did, let alone admit that what they did was wrong and harmful so there usually wouldn't be an obligation to reprimand them. In addition, due to the trauma you may be inflicting upon yourself unbearable pain by going over to your abuser and I don't know whether the obligation to reprimand him applies under such conditions. A Rov can be consulted

chosemyshem wrote on 01 Jul 2025 14:40:

Tzara dgufa likely doesn't help unless it's a real mechila. Regardless, it's a davar shebilev, without a source its hard to bring from monetary matters that a mecheila bpeh works. Also, I apologize if I wasn't clear, having taanos is not the same as hating. As Yitzchok said, that is a question for a rav.

bright wrote on 01 Jul 2025 04:57:

I really enjoy this discussion.

Thanks to R' Bright for bringing it up and to all for all the insightful מראה מקומות.

Trauma is a complicated sugya, and Im not a therapist.

The point of my post is not to bring out whether one should be mochel those that caused him pain or trauma. I think it's very likely that if a person is not holding by letting go and prematurely saying he is moichel, and there was no outreach from the offender to show remorse and ask forgiveness - that can be theoretically be (very) detrimental and cause perhaps further anguish to the victim.

That is a personal shaylah and needs personal introspection and a mentor. 

What I am saying is a shift in perspective. And as I said, its far from academic. Hear me out.

I think that if a person aknowledges that although he is not ready, and its not even right for him to (just) go and be moichel the offender (no matter who, an abusive rebbi, parent, "friend", etc.) just firmly accepting that letting go and being moichel, (cuz it's all Hashem's loving hand guiding us to the best destination for us is the eventual goal) already gives a person peace and a healthier mindset. 

Think about it, who's happier, the guy running around with a bag of rocks and gripes and justified - "I hate them and Im not moichel them"! "Forever"! Or the guy that thinks (and lives) "Hey, Im not ready to be moichel now, I don't know if I will ever be, that depends on my growth and well being. But I definetely want to get to that place where I can let go and aknowledge that it's all Hashem and all the puppets dont make a damn difference". (excuse my french there really is just no better word that fits better, sorry.) 

That is a world of a difference. Your already accepting. Your accepting yourself that your not ready to forgive. That's ok, your not obligated too. Your accepting the TRUTH, that this whole world is merely a facade and its Hashem's loving program, we just dont get it yet, and that's ok too. This world is just a hallway, the main show and understanding is soon to come! (Long live everyone till 120, o' course) These are major positive mindsets and mindshifts that have NOTHING to do with whether you are or are not moichel. I think I worded my earlier post in a wrong way. (Not that anyone gives a ______ (Here too the above word is best but too many exceptions are no good ) I said before there is an argument you should be moichel, I mean in concept, how practical it is depends on the individual. But the mindset! That mindset is gold. And the other mindset, perhaps can serve somewhat as a validation of the pain...but I think long term it just produces a bitterness, and perhaps a bitter person who is going to find ALOT to complain about. That's part of the nisayon of this world. Either we are (at least) trying and on the track of totally accepting Hashem (beginning of chovos halevavos shaar habitachon - like an eved is chayiv to rely on his master) or we are on track for misery. Like Rabbeinu Tam is famously magdir this world as a נוה התלאות. (House of horrors might be a good translation - eh?) But mindset and focus and eventually Bitachon in Hashem make a big difference.

If this post was offensive, I apologize. But I think its true. I will yield that people in midst of intense pain need alot of validation and comfort. But at a certain point we want to get better and healthy and starting on that track is easier than many might think.

trueme wrote on 02 Jul 2025 03:30:

Unless I am totally misunderstanding you, I am having trouble comprehending your point. 

What Bright is saying is quite simple. A victim of traumatic abuse should have the space to feel a "victimized" mindset, a mindset where he comes to terms with the fact that he was damaged and abused. Space to grieve, feel the pain, the betrayal, the hurt. Space to feel wronged, space to feel that it is the perpetrator who owes him a debt of forgiveness. 

And, to quote, "This widespread "turn the other cheek" idea — where forgiveness is preached as the automatic and ideal response — is, in my view, mistaken."

Trying to shove a victim of traumatic abuse into the perspective of "I definitely want to get to that place where I can let go and acknowledge that it's all Hashem and all the puppets don't make a damn difference", or  "but I think it is helpful to recognize the truth...when we will be holding there is different but at least we have the proper goal posts so we can say that we are trying"...READ: "Sheyfelah tayareh, we all know you need  "alot of validation and comfort", BUT...you should just know that "x" is your "true goal post" , is inherently counterproductive and obscuring the point. 

It is not some kind of b'dieved for a victim of traumatic abuse to approach it this way. It is totally l'chatchilah. The survivor of traumatic abuse owes nothing, not forgiveness, nor acceptance to the perpetrator, and Hashem understands that. No need to start moving any goalposts, or be at the beginning, end or middle of any kind of mindset shift. 

I daresay a victim of traumatic abuse may very well find your comments offensive.

youknowwho wrote on 02 Jul 2025 04:24:

Hold on!!! I am very very sorry if offended anyone that is suffering, and for sure from traumatic abuse. Period.

I am just trying to discuss this topic as I believe I also had tremendous pain from the system, which this thread started off with. I'm not going to go through my full trauma list as well. But I think based on how this conversation started I can share my opinion. My opinion is just an opinion and you can throw it in the yam hagadol or yam hakatan (whatever that is, actually whatever both of them are) if you'd like. Fair?

If this was a conversation devoted just for survivors of severe sexual abuse or something like that, I probably wouldnt post no matter what I thought.
But the system and religious pain, and even suffering alot from it, I think is maybe more common than we would wish and pretty much fair game for many people to opine on. 

I'm just gonna try to clarify and its probably my fault and not writing my posts well, I'm not sure.

Space to grieve I agree on, not preaching that the ideal to forgive as automatic I agree on as well. I specifically said Im not talking about obligation so I'm not talking about whether a survivor of any sort of abuse has to forgive. I also mentioned before I'm not talking about where the abuser (the kind that this thread was presented to be based on) is a רשע.

I was talking about do you graduate to step two (Not shoving in step 1!) or is at l'chatchila to stay at this grieving stage, even in mindset. You seem to say it is and I say its not. You say you shouldn't move goalposts. And I say that the healthy thing is to move goalposts - at some point. Im saying that there should be a point where moving on in perspective is the goal. I guess you can define anything as l'chatchila because its all levels. But I definetely dont think its ideal or better put, healthy for the victim to not have the mindset shift Im talking about. 
You put it very well with your word "l'chatchila" that sums it up. Like, think of any mussar sefer, they are preaching ideals, correct? We all still should want them, no? Chayiv adam loimar musai yagiyu masai lmasai avoisai. (News flash, it was just reported that there STILL remains only one Avraham, Yitzchok, and Yaakov! and even bigger news flash, our sources tell us its not looking better anytime soon...) Sheifos are part of every yid. (And thats an obligation, by the way!!) Why? Cuz mindset makes a difference. (The mindset here is a bit different its not about being bigger its just about accepting whats healthy and thearby already connecting oneslf to relying on and connecting to Hashem.) 
Even if it's not practical for an individual at the moment. I just think that what I said about a mindset tweak is easier than forgiving/being told to forgive or you should forgive etc.
Its about aknowledging whats ultimately healthy. Where you are at that point. And where you hope to get to. That is l'chatchila and should be done.
I think you understand me. 
I think I understand Bright. 
And I think we disagree.

And thats totally ok.

Now I can be wrong about that too... my opinion anyway, again I dont mean any harm.

I really do love this discussion. I think it has helped me clarify certain things that I have felt for a while and have not put words to it. So even if you disagree, thank you to all those contributing.

(P.S. someone that is now in raging pain should ignore my post. I dont think its appropriate to even read then. But otherwise, I think its true.)

If my posts on this thread are just bringing up pain and anger than Im just apologizing and I plan to stop. I think everyone has read and can make their own conclusions regarding what best applies to them.

I think someone lowered my Karma. I dont care about the karma, but I do care about hurting people, if that was the case, please post so or pm me.

Thanks.

youknowwho wrote on 02 Jul 2025 04:24:

Depending on the level of trauma, after one has allowed themselves an appropriate stay of victimhood, they may owe it to themselves to not stay stuck.

Time and time again, the nuanced yet simple point that bright so eloquently brought out gets lost in the weeds of soapbox idealism. 

Alex, calling such a person “stuck”, and attempting to judge “different levels of trauma”, or, trueme, differentiating between sexual trauma and religious trauma, is something that a survivor of trauma may very well find insensitive and judgmental.

It is precisely this kind of pushback that survivors get from well meaning people, that bright was talking about.

We cannot get the space, even on a thread dedicated to religious pain and trauma, to approach it any differently other than “tataleh you’re absolutely validated, BUT please don’t stay “stuck”.

I do not think any of you mean to be insensitive or judgmental, it’s likely a very different life experience that is causing us to have a totally different language here.

I am more than happy to discuss this with anybody via email or on the phone.

youknowwho wrote on 02 Jul 2025 11:34:

I dont mean to distinguish between religious and sexual trauma other than theres a certain emotional aspect (at least there are people that feel this way) that if one didn't survive it he should not be talking about it. I have no personal exp. with sexual trauma. I do with religious.
It is possible I have a different experience and that is getting in the way. I'm not conceding that, I'm just saying its possible.
I hope some people have gained from my points but it looks like I have upset others. 
I'm sorry if I derailed this thread.
As I said I think two different angles have been presented and people can clearly choose what suits them and speaks to them more.
Everyone should have hatzlacha in the way that works for them.

Just a more vulnerable share, although I hate doing so…

When @bright started this thread, it immediately piqued my interest. I greatly appreciated the discussion, and the approach he was expressing.

A few friends asked me offline why I am not weighing in, given my history.

My reply was that I think the Hellscape I went through is pretty rare and irrelevant to the discussion about legitimate issues being raised “within the system”.

Nonetheless, bright’s posts continued to be a source of healing, a balm to my soul.

I used to be a very judgmental person. I used to look down on certain people, thinking inside that they should just “move on, don’t be stuck, life is life, Hashem runs the world”.

My experience, however unusual it may have been, opened my eyes to the realization that all those people, yes, even people who on “pen and paper” may have gone through less, (for example, their rabbi my not have dangled them by their ankles over a pit of alligators) have had traumatic experience, and it is not in my place to judge that.

Different people respond differently to religious/emotional abuse, just like there exists a variety of reactions to sexual abuse. So much of it depends on nature, nurture, and the individual experience.

So, when I see that guy who is doing things that may be against the Torah, or his upbringing, his culture, my heart breaks for him. I want to hug him, cry with him, and tell him that I feel for him.

That’s all.

Space, space for him to just be.

For how long? I don’t know and I don’t care.

I know I can never be in his shoes, and I also know the pain of well-meaning people telling me, in subtle or not so subtle ways, to just “let go”.

When I shared my story with somebody on this forum, we spoke on the phone, and he cried copious tears, literally sobbing on the phone, and I was shocked at that level of empathy, that level of emotional awareness.

It pains me that on a thread dedicated to religious abuse survivors, we have well meaning people that insist on harping about “ideals”.

I impassionedly implore those who find the “victim mindset” offensive, to think about what I am writing. I have no right to tell anyone what to think or post, and I do respect other people’s opinions, I just want people to realize how hurtful this comes across…I for one have had tremendous healing benefit from bright’s posts, but I feel like he is being watered down by a constant drumbeat of counter points and ideals which continue to water down his very simple point.

youknowwho wrote on 02 Jul 2025 13:44:

Different levels of trauma is definitely not something anyone can judge about another. Some people may have a easier time than others, and they may see value in different perspectives.
I write from my perspective as having gone through trauma, religious and other. When I write dont get stuck, im speaking to myself. To me, its not a ideal, its a lifeline, its my only chance at a positive life. 
Many may not be ready to hear this at all, and thats fine. I understand why my perspective is hurtful to them and I should have clearly directed my posts at myself and not as something everyone had to hear.
I am really sorry my posts have caused others pain.

I already posted this above but it seems like some people have missed this point:

"According to psychologytoday.com psychologists tell their clients who were abused that they aren't obligated to forgive. Psychologists also say that it causes a lot of harm when people push those who were abused to forgive when they aren't at a stage where they are capable of forgiving. Psychologists will suggest forgiveness at a late stage of therapy if and when it is feasible."

alex94 wrote on 02 Jul 2025 14:14:

Your apology is appreciated although unnecessary, I realize that different people have different approaches. 

And I do not wish to negate your own experience. 

What I bolded in your words is, once again, an illustration of just how different our experience and perspectives are, for to me, telling a survivor of traumatic abuse that they may not "ready to hear" whatever, is inherently a pretty direct way of saying that you believe they are "stuck", and are not yet "ready" to absorb some kind of perspective or ideal. 

We are not stuck, and we do not need to be ready for anything. A perpetrator who has inflicted harm and damage and who knows good and well that people are upset at him, yet refuses to be accountable for his actions, deserves not forgiveness nor acceptance.

And I can say and feel that without being "bitter or angry", thankfully those negative emotions have cooled for me for the most part...

We have two totally different modes of expression based on our individual experiences.