My wife tells me I was crying hysterically to her on Purim how hard shmiras Einayim is for me. (Honestly, I do not recall it)
I have mixed thoughts about it.
She knows even before Purim I am trying hard to get better in Kedusha. (She does not know about the P& M - at last not the full extent) She sees how important it is to me.
She has definitely understood me more when I tell her I would rather not go somewhere because of the hazards involved.

On the other hand the fact that this is one of the things I am speaking about when being somewhat drunk perhaps means I am spending way too much time thinking about my struggles. It obviously is a big part of who I am but I have to take it down a notch.
The problem is that because of my weaknesses, I am confronted with a nisoyon of varying levels wherever I am except when I am learning. Have to somewhat stay focused on it.
Any ideas?


Meinyan linyn boisa inyan:

I had a thought that is terrifying and hopeful at the same time:
I feel that I am losing motivation to keep fighting. It is SOOOOOOOOOO difficult to keep it up. I am not acting with the same alacrity that I did when faced with a nisoyon. (if its sound contradictory to the first part of this post, I have the same kasha) I can not say that I fell or even slipped b"h but I feel that I am being more acceptable of getting into trouble. Case in point: I was somewhere surrounded by people in close proximity, including some who were not dressed appropriately. It was for the most part non-yidden. I tried keeping my eyes to myself but somethings came to my line of vision. While I did turn my eyes away it was without any fire or passion. It was perhaps a little slower turning away as well. I greatly respect those who are calm when facing a nisoyon. This was without fire not because I was unfazed and calm by it, but rather because I am losing the motivation to keep doing it. (A big difference)

I was thinking as to why I am getting like this. I honestly do not know for sure, but I truly believe that it is revealing a shortcoming in yiras Shamayim. I really think if I was on a higher level of Yirah I would still be motivated. (a very distressful thought)

But there is a kernel of hopefulness as well.
Let me explain:
Many people can agree with me that when  many (maybe all) people come to GYE it is not a yiras Shamayim issue. Once I got so into the dirt it was not something that a few good mussar sedarim can help. It was living in a world that celebrates promiscuity, and glorifies immorality, without  being given the tools to fight against it. A totally uneven battle. When I was in yeshiva as a bachur the whole topic was off limits. (not that I would have understood even if it was discussed because most of my problems read: P & M other then fantasizing and looking started after marriage.) When  we come to GYE , it is not like a magic pill that we take and dada! I am clean! Not at all. What GYE does is that it teaches us the tools to break free and evens out  the playing field so  it is  more of a  fair fight. I truly believe that if I get my yiras shamayim in order I will be more motivated to keep fighting. (This is not to say it will be easy as the YH is very strong as well). If that is the case then it means I have gained so much on GYE! It means I have learned some tools to make this regular milchamas hayetzer like any other. (admittedly, not exactly like any other because I fed this YH for so long and the tavva is very strong, but you get my point). It means that I am definitely in a better place then I was a few months ago.  That gives me hope that perhaps one day I can start making internal change for real. Maybe even hope that one day it won't always be one long suppression of my  tavvos. Now wouldn't that be nice?

In closing, it is very distressful that I realize i am so lacking in yiras shamayim. I havse started saying a lot that as a human, falls and set backs are to be excepted. But I say it could be expected  but can never be accepted! But believing that working on that will help me shows what i have gained from you guys over this time!

For that I say Thank You!!! (and please do not stop!)

Jolly !! There's nothing to add here you said the question and gave the answer .   You shteiged tremendously and yes it's slowly becoming a YH just like lashon hara that most of us don't have huge fire not to say. But we sometimes control ourselves sometimes not .  Originally you were on fire about this topic now it's becoming more of a normal yetser hara.       Congratulations hatslacha!!

It does seem to be a popular opinion on GYE that those coming here aren't struggling because of a lack of Yiras Shamayim. I assume the reasoning behind this is that the same person who is so heavily involved in עריות is at the same time careful in other areas of halacha, maybe some, maybe most, maybe all. Also because the people here usually come with a lot of guilt about what they're doing.

Personally I'm not convinced that this is right. Maybe the right way to look at it is the other way around, if I so blatantly transgress in a stringent area of halacha again and again that's a proof that my rigidness in other areas is not because of yiras shamayim, but because of something else. If I really had yiras shamayim then I wouldn't be falling all the time in this area either.

However if I'm right, it's still true to say that it's not a yiras shamayim issue. Because once we've established that it's possible to keep many areas of halacha without yiras shamayim, the difference between the guy who struggles with porn and the guy who doesn't is likely not an issue of yiras shamayim at all. The other guy doesn't have yiras shamayim either, but for some reason the same things that are enough for him to refrain from eating pork are also sufficient to keep him away from porn. So in terms of the avoda I have to do it's very likely not yiras shamayim, like is attested to by the success of so many in staying clean without the focus being on yiras shamayim.

I don't mean to say I think it's any particular person's fault for not having yiras shamayim. We've been living in a reality which is מראה לכאורה הפך השגחתו יתברך for thousands of years, surrounded by degenerate cultures, full of traumas etc.

I know this is probably an unpopular opinion and I don't mean to offend anyone. I would love to have yiras shamayim and maybe one day I will. And I don't hold the fact that I don't against myself or anyone else. Yiras shamayim is the one thing hkbh asks from us (not sure what to do with the rest of the pasuk exactly but that's what the gemara says) so clearly attaining it is a major accomplishment. Vzeh col ha'adam. And there's no reason to think that because I made it to 20, 30, 40 years old without ever eating pig on yom kippur that I accomplished the only thing that is really asked of me in the end of the day

Whoa was not expecting that hot take. No one has yiras shomayim was not on my list of expected GYE opinions for today.

I'm maskim to an extent. I'm sure no one today has the yiras shomayim the simplest tailor did etc. etc. And certainly nothing in the same level of existence as what even the greatest kofrim of Tanach had.

But then yiras shomayim stops being a reasonable metric. I''ll be judged based on the levels I reach of yiras shomayim in comparison to what I could have reached. Not what Mechel the tailor may or may not have reached (which we will literally never know.)

What stops me sinning in other things? I don't know, probably there's a minute amount of yiras shomayim in there but probably it's mostly other things (like what's socially acceptable.) But so what. Call it whatever you want. I happen to think it makes sense to use the familiar term yiras shomayim.
The point is that there is a yotzei min haklal for porn that is remarkably different than the entire other area of my avodas Hashem - where I deal with my yetzer hara sometimes better and sometimes worse but overall functionally. So the porn is not a testimony that the rest of the avodah is fake, it's a testimony that there's something sick with porn. And so it's possible to heal that sickness so that porn become a "normal yetzer hara" (in theory. Haven't seen it happen.)

simchastorah wrote on 17 Mar 2025 21:20:

 I tend to disagree with the premise that people do not have Yiras shamayim. I agree that there there are some people who meet your description. (I shudder thinking that it may be me) The majority I would say do have  at least some minimal level of it. There are some very chashuva people who struggle with this stuff. Speak to HHM. He can tell you what type of people he deals with. But that is beside the point. We can agree to disagree.  I obviously do not know everything and it is possible that I am wrong.
The point i was trying to make was that once I was doing this on a more consistent basis, it almost felt like I had no bechira. It does not make  a diff if I was technically "addicted" or not. I could be screaming at myself "Don't do it, don't do it!" and do it anyway while I am screaming. The reason being that I did not know how to deal with it. I believe that this YH is diff then many others in that regard. It was like what the gamra says putting a kid on the doorstep of a bais znus and expecting him not to sin? What GYE does is to  give us the tools to fight it. It makes it a fight we can win.

Again, I have been wrong before and will be wrong again. But that is how I see it.

@shem I do mostly agree with what you wrote and some of it (the last paragraph) was included in what I wrote. However in my view yiras shamayim is not a "metric," it's an internal "perspective" which is very hard if not impossible to measure from the outside. (My Rebbi once told me from someone (if anyone knows who I'll be grateful) that the only ones who know if a person is yarei shamayim are they themselves, their wife, and Hashem.
Also to clarify I am not saying "no one" has yiras shamayim. I am saying you can't tell, and that it's an accomplishment. Though when you represented my view as "no one" you may have been exaggerating, it's hard to tell in text.

@jolly 1) I see very chashuva and yiras shamayim as two separate categories 2) telling yourself "don't do it! don't do it!" is not necessarily yiras shamayim. Don't do it is a very practical ratzon. But the basis of that ratzon is what may or not be yiras shamayim. For example if I am telling myself not to do it because if I do I will feel like a piece of garbage that is not (necessarily) yiras shamayim. I may feel like a piece of garbage for doing it for some other reason. I can certainly relate to screaming at myself "dont do it dont do it" while doing it. But if I saw the gates of hell open under my feet with an extremely clear understanding that "doing it" was my ticket to enter I'm sure I wouldnt have done it. (This being the lower level of yiras haonesh, not trying to be magdir exactly what that is, just a mashal)


I want to reiterate - none of this suggests to me that what one should therefore do is start learning more mussar. I fully agree that for most of us that's not the eitza. However if learning mussar were as effective in developing yiras shamayim as we would like to believe then maybe that would be the eitza. I could be wrong on this whole thing and I would love to receive a message from shamayim that I am a yarei shamayim.

There are many different levels of Yirah
Many different levels of Fear -
There are times
       when those very selfsame eyes 
Well up with more than a tear. 

After so many days, and so many times
So much heartbreak, and so many climbs,  
I’ve run out of rhyming, 
                But I’m still sincere. 

How can I know what’s deep in the depths ? 
only Yodaya Taalumos can safely address, 
I can try to redress
           to assuage my distress 
      and my Fears. 

Yeah- 
I’m afraid that I won’t, and I fear that I will, 
I’m afeared that I dont, but keep doing until. 

למען תהי׳ יראתו על פניכם
What does it mean? 
I’m afraid I don’t know,
and that’s ok. 

In a world gone mad 
I try to do 
       what makes me feel 
is right and true 
is that Yirah? 

I do it because 
   it’s how I live
it’s who I am
    I talk to You 
I feel you want me 
Sometimes
    I want to feel You 
Sometimes 
I try and I’ll keep trying.
Ill keep working to get better. 
Is that Yirah? 
dunno
It’s good, and it’s good enough for me. 

Ah Bissel Yireh. 
Ah Bissel Ahava
Ah Bissel Bitachon.
ודומו סלה.

מאן דבעי חיים

Chaim Oigen:
It has been mentioned once or twice that I can be somewhat slow on the pick up.
Is there a way to rephrase that without the rhymes?

Sorry for the tircha.

jollylemur95 wrote on 18 Mar 2025 18:59:

Are you asking Chaim Oigen to engage in blank verse??!!   HERESY! 

jollylemur95 wrote on 18 Mar 2025 18:59:

Sigh. I’ll try. I won’t be able to fully express every emotion this way. And it will be a long Drosho and less poignant. But for you, dear Jolly, I’ll do a lot. 

To me, an analysis if a person truly has Yiras Shamayim or not is a loaded and not-so-relevant question. 

First of all, there are many different levels of Yirah.
Fear of people, fear of embarrassment, fear of various forms of punishments, all these are included within the categories of Yirah. There are Pesukim and Seforim that describe derogatorily people who refrain from Aveiros for these reasons. But it’s also clear that refraining because of any of these reasons is still better than falling, obviously! And they seem to fall within the general category of Yirah. Rav Yochanan seems to have been very comfortable with the idea that good Jews refrain from Sin because of fear of other people מורא בשר ודם.

So, first off, I think that it’s not proper to say “I have zero Yiras Shamayim, it’s only social pressure and the way I was raised.” That’s also a kind of Yiras Hsamayim, albeit a lower level. Maybe it’s not ideal, but it ain’t nothing. And something is good. (We’re not consistent? Yeah. I know. It frustrates me too, a lot more than I like to think about.)

But, getting deeper, it’s hard to really know. Because It’s hard for a person to really know what’s going on deep inside. Only the Rebono Shel Olam, who is the Yodaya Taalumos (see Ramabm Hilchos teshuva) really understands. A person sometimes thinks he would never do something, could never do it, and then he goes and does it. And farkert too, sometimes a person discovers ‘Mesirus Nefesh and tremendous resolve welling up inside of him, from a place that he thought was completely empty and dead. We are bottomless wells with deep, deep, eternal Neshamos, and we don’t really understand what lies in the depths of our hearts. Simple Yiddin have given up their lives for the Aibershter, and I suspect that many of the good folks here would give up their lives, too. Don’t write off that which you can’t measure or understand. 

The main thing is: רגזו ואל תחטאו אמרו בלבבכם ועל משכבכם ודומו סלה 
Keep trying. Keep working.  That’s certainly a step of Yirah. And it’s good and right. Do you feel sincere about trying? Yes? That’s certainly some level of genuine, beautiful Yiras Shamayim, to my thinking.  And I love you for it. I think Hashem does too. 

Yirah means when our Emuna impacts our lives in a practical way, on a level that effects our actions and internal emotional world and life-view.

Fear of being zapped or losing your reputation is far less lofty then fear of losing a sense of closeness and a relationship with Hashem. But it’s also something real. And how do you know what you really are motivated by? I’ve seen that most people aren’t so self aware, LiTov UliMutav. If you want to get better and are trying, then there’s a sense of otherworldly awareness in your life. One way or another, that’s a kind of Yiras Shamayim. And Hashem has precious little of it in this world today, trust me. 

So personally I think it’s less about the analysis and more about the actions. That’s what we can hang on to. But with kindness and compassion. Because you deserve it.

How many people in this filthy, forsaken excuse for world are STRIVING? Huh? Not enough, is the right answer. If you are striving, you’ve got a Bissel Yirah, a Bissel ahava. And that’s DAMN good! 

והנה טוב מאוד 
ודומו סלה 

Love, 
Chaim 

P.S. I don’t think that my good, special, contemplative friend simchastorah would disagree with much of what I’ve written. Nor have I addressed his fundamental point, which is thought-provoking and well-taken. I just prefer to approach the matter this way, with a little self compassion, and then think about how to stay clean today. 

Peace, 
Chaim

At first I just clicked thank you.
But seeing you took the time to explain in English. (For me if the rhyme is more then 2-4 lines it is almost Chinese) I felt it would not be enough. So I wrote it out in full: 
THANK YOU!!

This is a very rare post.
I actually had a  victory b"h. When I was in the matziv I told myself that I would post this ,pass or fail. I used it as motivation. I did not want to have to post something negative. So thank you guys for helping me!

As the weather turns warmer there are more people spending time outdoors. For those who do not dress appropriately, they again chose to reveal more then what should be.revealed. Also, with Yom Tov approaching with the million and one trips to the grocery ongoing I am being around many people in a confined place. This is besides for life's issues leading me to more of these places. I was in the grocery on Wed. It was an utter disaster. I allowed my eyes to look into far to many places and people that it shouldn't. ( for those who are wondering, I am speaking truth, not being overly harsh). I left the store with a terrible set back in Shmiras Einayim. And the subsequent urges to act out.

The victory was the next day. I found myself back in the same store. I found my eyes wondering again. I thought to myself. This is my opportunity to show that yesterday was a fluke. Not the real me. (of course, that does not excuse it, even if it is a fluke) I then added that I would post about it, pass or fail. Just as another motivator. I did not want to post my failures.(Ee efshar lifortom ki rabbim hem) With these 2 things it was totally great bh! I even noticed a women trying to reach something on a higher shelf. I was able to offer my assistance without even looking at her. Another women came over to me to ask me something and I did not see  her face at all. Thanks to you guys, I was oisa makom and oisa zman and refrained. (I honestly can not tell you if it was oisa isha)

Thank you chevra!

So Jolly is finally maskim that he is a good guy! Moshiach must be near!   

All joking aside, ashrecha Jolly!!  What a way to head into Chodesh Nisan - the zman of hischadshus!

jollylemur95 wrote on 27 Mar 2025 17:01:

This is painful.
It was not Oisa Isha at all. That was me buddy.
Golly.

redfaced wrote on 28 Mar 2025 12:23:

Should I even ask how you got a hair from that woman for your juice? You know that if you accidentally grab a sheitle hair you'd end up looking like some old Indian lady . . .