Do We Look Down Upon or Worship Naked "Shiksas" (or Both)?dov wrote on 28 Nov 2011 00:21:
Calling them prejoratives like "shiksah" right at the outset, belies your attitude to them as being subhumangibbor120 wrote on 28 Nov 2011 17:17:

dov, I have a kashe.  You frequently refer to looking at porn as looking at "naked shiksas".  Is that not pejoritave?  Am I missing something?  I'm not attacking, just wondering what's the diff?dov wrote on 28 Nov 2011 20:12:

I write that in order to point out that a frum guy who considers himself normally a rather holy person - but with a porn problem, is actually playing a little game. He is looking up to and even worshipping people that he'd probably never even want to talk to, feeling they are the lowest of the low. Now, I do not consider them low personally. They are trying to make a living and misguided, I believe. But that's not the point here.

How many guys have I met who want to play the game of looking down on these nudes or badly dressed women - and yet put them on a high pedestal, valuing them enough to be l'hutim achareihem? Many. I played that game for years. It is a game that perpetuates the addiction. It is one example of kol haposeil bemumo poseil, looking at the nudes as low and disgusting people - while still using them with such temidus and mesiras nefesh. Their images are precious to us! That's why we want them so much! So, struggling not to stare at them in the street, while saying they are 'disgusting' to me is a lie and a silly game. And ultimately, it allows people to keep staring at them and using them. It's very sad. I want people to be sopber, and that is the only reason I am pointing this out. 

I am not judging - hey, I know and tell anyone in recovery that I am a recovering pervert. That I cannot do it without a daily reprieve from none other than G-d Himself - cuz I do not have the madreigo/moral fortitude/yir'as Shomayim to resist temptations, and particularly for sex. I have no superiority at all over you or anyone here, even over a guy who is still masturabting daily. That could be me - and should be, by all rights, as far as I can tell.

Here, I am only hoping to rip the hypocritical cover off the game some good guys are playing. My cover is already ripped off today, I hope.

dov wrote on 01 Jan 2012 15:45:I have seen atheists become men who have a G-d - simply by following their sponsor's instructions to just "pray anyhow, even though you do not believe in G-d!".

But "oh, no, I've gotta be sincere..." - coming from a person who is accepting using women's images against their will to feed his sexual fantasies - that's OK?

Yeah, so one may say that,
"Wadayamean!? It's not against their will. If you saw how they dress you'd know that they want me to imaging them naked and use them!"

Then I simply ask you to speak to them and plainly tell any one of them that you are imagining her wearing no clothes and that you are fantasizing about her in bed with you....see how that goes.

That "they are asking for it" is a subtle and convenient lie we tell ourselves, plain and poshut. A lie. Yes, they are wrong for dressing that way - but their intention is not our way of interpreting it. The same excuse is common among religious fundamentalists the world over: "She asked to be raped by dressing that way". A lie. She did not really want it to go that far. Why is it so OK for us to have our cake and eat it too - yet when other people do things like that, we demand they pay the consequences and take away their right to play the game of acting naughty without being treated that way. It's like saying all mountain climbers (yes, it's an idiotic thing to do to risk one's life climbing mountains because they are there) deserve to die (just as idiotic). That is not what "damo beroishoi" means - and anyhow, that is only for the beis din shel ma'aloh, never for us to take action on. They don't want to die!
Just like we guys have wanted so many times to look at porn, or even to touch ourselves - but without actually spilling zera. And so many times we got to that point of no return with shock and disappointment: "Hey! I wanted to stop a second ago! Iv'e been cheated! Ayyy!" I have certainly been there many times.
C'mon. Why the double standard? If I can be a little dishonest for my lust escapades, then I feel it's OK for me to be a little dishonest for recovery. If you must, "L'olam y'hei odom orum byir'ah."

Ok. It does a few things. First and strangest, I owe something to the person I am lusting after because lusting is always an act of "taking". I am using their image for selfish ends. (And saying that "They are obviously begging for it cuz look at how they are dressed!" is BS. I am reasonably certain that the average slutty female out there intends to be lusted after by who they want to be lusted after, not by some compulsive, perverted Jew boy like me.) So how better to show my gratitude?

Second, lusting is the single most powerful, portable, and dependable way I exercise my MEEEEE muscle (the one in my head, not somewhere else ). It is my drug of choice for entertaining myself, for covering up stress, fear, and boredom, for controlling my inner environment - in short, it is my most trusted Power source. Otherwise, why would I use it so much?  So how do I sacrifice it? By just saying "no"? Nu. OK. That's what I always tried to do.... it didn't get me very far away from it. If you know anything about operand conditioning or habits, then you know that I choose to go a step further and use my lust as a guide and tool for giving power to others. To helping me learn to care about helping others. What better way to weaken the MEEEEE muscle than to do what little I can to care about the very people I naturally worship as my (false) Power Source? I turn the tables as much as I can.

Finally, it gives me something to focus on rather than on lusting. And that itself is worth everything, even if my prayers for her are of no benefit to her. Treating a lust object like the real, live person they are is one of the most powerful tools to help me to stop looking at them like pieces of meat (with skin on them). We need to be reoriented. The entertainment and porn industries have succeeded in getting so many of us to believe deep in our hearts that pretty women are all dolls; that above all else they are libidos desperate to be used by us; and that they don't have real lives with obligations, pains, joys, sadness, and dreams of real people... and that perspective entitles us in our hearts to treat them as objects. Is it any wonder then, that most lust addicts grow to expect (no, demand) sexual bliss from their wives as though their feelings are just an obstacle? I looked into the shulchan aruch to see what I could demand of my wife, rather than looking into her heart... now what kind of BS is that? No wonder we were so miserable back then! She was an object, in some respect.

We need exercises to change, it will not happen just because we wish it to. And it takes a long, long time. But it works and it is worth it.

A caveat: I was once walking with an SA beginner who was staring at the rear end of a lady out in front of us, and mumbling. I asked him what the heck he was doing. He told me that he was praying for her.... I reminded him that he might be praying for her butt, but not for her. Ha. We both had a laugh went on our way. So the praying can't be done as an excuse to keep staring! A sweet dufus, he was.