If I am not mistaken, I think that most married men are aware, at least in some periods of their life and if they are lucky for most or all of their life, that the pleasure of intimacy is mostly about mutual validation and emotional bonding, meaning that their wife appreciates them as a person and they appreciate their wife as a person. Intimacy transforms from being primarily about physical pleasure to being primarily an experience of emotional bonding and validation even for men. If a man takes an interest in pleasing his wife and she is pleased with him then there is mutual validation and it was a great experience. Physical pleasure during intimacy without emotional bonding becomes almost meaningless. This is true notwithstanding the fact that physical pleasure plays a bigger role for men than for women. P&M and all the craziness that goes on in western society creates a fantasy about marriage that doesn't exist in the real world. This can in turn make marriage and real life intimacy disappointing because of false expectations. Sorry for being so philosophical about an emotional experience.

yitzchokm wrote on 25 Aug 2023 18:34:

While it's true that I don't like philosophy here - regardin' any experience - physical or emotional, what really rubs me wrong are absolutes - especially when they are taken from the high ground - I'm, at times, guilty of providin' absolutes from the gutter. I can't pick one sentence from the above to disagree with, for I basically disagree with the entire premise. I'm not against emotional bondin' durin' sex, but let's not forget that sex is about sex - especially to us guys. We want sex because it feels good. Some of us are on a higher level and we enjoy makin' our wife or partner or significant other feel good as well. Some of us like bein' pleased and some of us enjoy pleasin'. It's almost like the posts here from fellows are makin' us guys to be sinners, for we enjoy sex and we are not recitin' the kabbalah at the time of ejaculation; we are not thinkin' of marital bliss as we are shucklin' or kissin; we are not contemplatin' the purpose of life, matrimony and procreation as we are caressin' and bein' caressed. For all of you who are experiencin' this emotional bond and mutual validation, please continue doin' so. For all of those, myself included, who are not, please continue as well. Wishin' all of you a wonderful Shabbos, and if it so happens that there is frolickin' and rompin' in your home tonight, kal hakavod to you. May the Heavenly Angels rejoice in your happiness.

Godspeed to all

On a personal note, I actually have found that I have more feelings of closeness achar hamaaseh...

cordnoy wrote on 25 Aug 2023 19:04:


Reb Cordnoy is presenting us with a very basic level of human nature as to why we want sex and what it’s purpose is- pleasure.

However this conversation in my opinion is not denying that nor does it relate to that point. I believe it is referring to us who have treated women, specifically the one in our life, as an object for self gratification, not as another human being who wants and enjoys physical pleasure just as much as we do. 

That being said, I think that the conversation here is talking about how to fix that convoluted thinking process in a positive and healthy way. (We are not talking about abusing a spouse, for that would need other methods of heeling.) Obviously it needs correction outside of the bedroom, but at the same time also needs correction inside the bedroom. Therefore, the discussion is what the focus of healthy intimacy is after the focus is on the physical pleasure, not as a sex toy, but as a human being. 
(it would therefore follow that thinking of Shem Havaya is not conducive, because it is just avoiding the focus of treating a wife as a sex toy and not as a human. So someone can have the loftiest thoughts and still treat his wife as garbage. We/I have to avoid all other thoughts besides for my pleasure and her pleasure exclusively. My pleasure being secondary, as that can lead to the continued process of self gratification.)

Hi Everyone! I wanted to share something I was thinking about this past week.
We speak about an אשת יפת תואר. The Torah uses very specific wording in this parsha as Rashi points out in a few different places, (only for him not a son, only to Marry, etc.)
One of the words the Torah chose is “וחשקתה בה”, “you will want her”, The Torah seemingly avoided the normal word for want- רצון. The Torah should have written it ״ורצית בה״, simple. 
I think that as a possible answer I would offer that the difference between חשק and רצון is the internal mechanics of this fellow. These people were quite great people in every sense, (שלא הפסיק בין תפילין של יד לראש ע״ש) and they “Chapped a taiva”, they lost perfect control. The רצון of these people was to do good, but their חשק, was for this beautiful lady. (ולמבינים, אין להקשות מדברים י׳ ט״ו, רק באבותיך חשק, ודוק)
Very often we “want” something but we don’t really “WANT” it. The difference between night and day, exact opposite desires. We know this desire will destroy us, and we want it, BUT we also don’t want it…
Uhhhh the complexity of life…

I just want to put it out there that there is a ספר called משכן ישראל, that gives an organized and balanced approach to the inyanim of קדושת הבית based on Slabodkah mesorah. He touches on a lot of what was discussed here and brings a variety of sources. One of the things he says there is there is no חסרון in not thinking about דברים קדושים ועליונים, and only a מעלה if it contributes to the שמחה and יחוד of husband and wife. Generally, that means thinking about things that have to do with the depth of the חיבור itself (not just any שמות קדושים וסוגיות בש"ס) or about tzadikim that you want your children to emulate. For more about what contributes and what doesn't, when and how, עיין שם. (not recommended for bachurim. Not trying to hide anything, it just won't be helpful for you if you're not married).

But for our purposes, any yid that has a positive experience in the bedroom with his wife (and it's positive for her too) within the bounds of halacha is doing a big mitzvah. period. Regardless of kavanos. Intimacy in that context is holy of holies. That's exactly why when it is taken out of the right context it is a destructive fire. And we have to remember that the destructive power of P&M does not reflect on our own holiness. We should not feel that we are "dirty" because we have desires. Hashem created us with those desires for a very very holy purpose. 

shmira101 wrote on 28 Aug 2023 05:22:

Very, very well said, my deep-thinking friend.  Lots of great stuff here.

Personally, I think about this all the time. When I want something, I try to dig a little deep inside to feel and understand - why do I want it? Which part of my essence desires this? 
Even though there's an expression brought in many Seforim that החשק אין לו עינים, nevertheless, I think a Cheishek can be related to as an emanation of an internal Ratzon. So it does make sense to ask and try to understand how does this desire fit into my overall Ratzon, what I want in my entirety? Exploring my many layers of Ratzon, and their conflicts, and trying to resolve (somewhat successfully, with the help of HKBH) the Dr. Jekle and Mr. Hyde dichotomy that exists inside me has immeasurably enhanced my life. For often, (but not always) I now know what I want. 
......And that's something that I want.  

chaimoigen wrote on 28 Aug 2023 12:56:

שהחיינו

@shmira101 @chaimoigen @cordnoy
I heardthe Dubno Magid speaks about the difference between Cheshek and Chefetz across the Chumash. Arev vs Mo'il. Ruchani  vs Gashmi. 

Also see Malbim on Parshas Vayishlach by Shechem, he discusses the terms used there, Ahava, Cheshek, Chefetz etc. 

Just want to point out something which to me is amazing. 
If anyone recently noticed, on the bottom of the forum page is a count of “users”, which recently topped 15,000!!
That means that 15,000 Yiden who struggle in some way or another with inappropriate sexual behavior have stepped forward in some way to better themselves in this area! 
In my opinion, all the Woodford Lechaim and Retzufos Sedorim should be activated full force!

(I am much to cynical for more hype but I do think it is something for everyone here to be proud of.) 
Yes, Reb Cordnoy, I know, it should be more, but Reb Eerie will still give me a hug for pointing it out  

I'll give you a hug just for being you, even if you didn't point anything out;)