bright wrote on 06 Oct 2023 22:59:
cordnoy wrote on 06 Oct 2023 05:11:
Captain wrote on 06 Oct 2023 01:44:
cordnoy wrote on 05 Oct 2023 23:46:
Let's use your murderer mashal: He kills a fellow, does teshuvah (however); then he sees the almanah and six kids without a dollar to their name, kids gettin' beaten up in school for they have no father to back them up, wife and kids in and out of therapy, etc. "Not my problem - I'm a new creation!" - I would say that's hogwash.
Someone watched years and years of porn and then did teshuvah (again, assumin' with all the intricacies), and those images keep vividly playin' on rewind - those are challenges and not his responsibility? I don't think so; those are his to keep.
Godspeed to all
I don't understand how a person who ignores the poor victims is the same as a person who gets desires and tries to fight them. I would think that even though he caused those desires, his teshuva can still be serious and have all the trimmings and he could still experience those thoughts because of his past, and that doesn't mean that his teshuva is lacking. As opposed to someone who ignores the consequences of his actions like in the murderer example. Perhaps you can explain better.
I was comparin' the two for one point, and that is that although one did a complete teshuvah, there are still consequences.
Additionally, I did not say that experiencin' thoughts of the past is an indicator that his teshuvah was lackin'.
My point is a simple one: One can do a complete teshuvah and still experience thoughts from the past - that is a result of his actions, not a new challenge. [The poster was bothered by a question: How can he be sufferin' from past actions when he did teshuvah? On account of this, he answered that it is a new challenge. Hence, my argument.]
My point is that he is as responsible for those thoughts as a person who never did those behaviors and is suddenly plagued by thoughts. Meaning, not responsible for the thoughts themselves, rather for what he does with them. IYH Hashem will take them away, but for now this is the reality. We dont change overnight even if there was a complete tshuva as you said, Cordnoy. Sorry if there was misunderstanding on my part.
[p]Nothin' to be sorry about; thanks for clarifyin'. I think your point is a good one, although I'm not certain I agree. I'm not certain I don't either. Tis a good question, I think. [And just to calrify, I am uncertain regardin' both halves: 1. A person who watched porn extensively and frequented houses of ill-repute, and then did teshuvah (in what capacity?), and later those images and scenes conjure up in his head (especially in Shemoneh Esrei - read my posts from years ago where this is discussed in-depth), is he responsible for those thoughts alone - even without actin' upon them? Normally, we are not liable for thoughts, but these, he created. By the way, is he responsible for thoughts alone that do not lead to action (i.e., fantasy) prior to his teshuvah? 2. Is he more responsible for those actions that came about as a result of those thoughts just the same as a fellow who did the same, but was never steeped in that behavior beforehand?
Godspeed[/p]
I appreciate the entire discussion.
Here are a few points that I think are relevant and germane, even though what I’m going to write doesn’t necessarily take a side on the specific question last raised. That question is a good one, and im also not entirely sure what I think about it. I do feel that it’s a bit theoretical, as I’ll explain.
These points are meaningful to me, personally, and I’ve thought a lot about this, so please forgive the length of my post.
1. Rabbeinu Yona (שער א אות ט) speaks about the many varying levels of Teshuva. He makes a point that, much like a dirtied garment, a basic wash removes the filth, but it takes a lot of bleaching to remove the final vestige of the stain from the fabric. So too, basic Teshuva achieves Selicha, but it takes much work to accomplish complete and total Teshuva, to be considered completely pure and clean (what Cordnoy calls “Teshuva with all the trimmin’s).
Rabbeinu Yona says that what’s needed for that final level is כאשר
יטהר האדם את לבו ויכין את רוחו , and he cites the Posuk אשרי אדם לא יחשיב ה לו עון
ואין ברוחו רמיה . A full examination of the paragraph, to my reading, shows that a person can have fully stopped doing a negative behavior, have made a true Kabla for the future, and truly is considered a Baal Teshuva. But, nevertheless, if he still harbours a “soft-spot” for his former actions deep in his heart, Rabbeinu Yona says he still has work to do to achieve complete cleanliness. That why Rabbeinu Yona teaches us 20 iklarim of Teshuva, not just 3 - so we can reach a final, pure level of complete Teshuva. Learning them all paints a vivid picture of the luminous beauty of a full Baal Teshuva; his wholehearted fullness of being imbued with קרבת אלוקים .
Accordin’ to Rabbeinu Yona, I think that a person who is triumphantly (and sometimes exhaustingly) counting clean days, yet who is still having lustful thoughts would probably fit the bill of an as-of-yet incomplete Baal Teshuva. That’s still a wonderful achievement! But, accordin’ly, he’d probably be held accountable for those thoughts, as they flow from the as-of-yet unbleached stain on his heart. (To quote Lady Macbeth: “Out, out! Da@ned spot!”).
2. Notwithstanding this truth, I think it’s not productive or healthy to dwell on it much.
Because the best and only thing a man can do is keep moving forwards and growing. One step at a time. We aren’t asked to do more than that, or anything else. That conversation I had with you, Cordnoy, helped a lot.
3. I think that it’s good that only the Rebono Shel Olam is in charge of deciding who is culpable for what. Only He can or ought to know who deserves to pay and what to pay for what’s still not yet fixed while a man is (honestly yet) imperfectly engaged in the journey of Teshuva. That’s the Rebono Shel Olam’s job, as the צור תמים פעלו כי כל דרכיו משפט .
I don’t think we can figure that all out, and I don’t think there’s much point in trying.
Hashem is the Judge, I am the servant. All He expects of me, I think, is to figure out what I need to do today to serve Him better than I did yesterday, and how to keep growing. That’s something I can try to do. If I’m doing that , I can and should feel good. And keep trucking. Judgement belongs to Him alone, ואין דן יחידי אלא
אחד
if I keep up my Avoda of incremental growth, the stain will keep fading. Hopefully into insignificance, and then oblivion, with the work I’m doing, over time, until I’m wholly unsullied.
How well will that work to mitigate damage that a person has caused? To other people or himself? I don’t know. There were a lot sources quoted in earlier posts here. I worked through some of them in the past, and I’m unclear, Limaase, how it works (there may be a difference between בין אדם למקום ובין אדם לחבירו)
But my personal answer is that I really don’t know, but I trust Him completely, and I put myself willingly into His hands. I rely on His י״ג מידות ל רחמים.
4. Vehkam’s point resonates, and I’ve corresponded with you, Bright, on this too. A person is called to perform an Avodas Hashem that is unique to his personality and situation. As we have Bechira , a person’s mission and calling will change, according to his actions and choices, (for the better or the worse). A man’s bad choices of past do not detract from the fact that he has an Avoda that he called to do today. I’d like to believe (and Seforim support this) that every man, regardless of his past, has a mission in which he can achieve greatness. Sometimes that mission may today include tremendous potential accomplishments that would never have been achievable without certain mistakes in the past, I suppose that the growth involved to get there is תיקון, וזדוניות נעשים לו כזכויות
There are people on this site who, to my limited sight, seem to have perhaps achieved that lofty goal, (though only Hashem truly knows). Perhaps, with Siyata Dishmaya, I too will be Zocheh one day.
For today, I have today's job cut out for me. And I’m thankful to have the opportunity.
Warning: Spoiler!
