HHM: The Friday night episode seemed pretty tough for you. You mentioned having tears in your eyes. I have absolutely no experience with marital relationships so I can't offer anything, but it was inspiring to read how you maintained your dignity. Moments like that will improve your wife's trust in you. I just hope it doesn't have to be so difficult for you in the future. I think you should be proud of yourself and you should own it. Let yourself feel good about it.

HHM,
I really appreciate your posting this episode. You are an inspiration! I have had similar experiences, but never at the end of a cycle. I can't imagine how you felt. I would've manipulated her in to doing it, especially since she said that she wants to do if this is the last chance, and cycles aren't always exact dates, etc... 
You are truly amazing.
p.s. Just a suggestion, if you do not mind. When my wife and I are together in bed, not for sex, we remain clothed. It is much harder to prevent mz"l or needing sex when there is bare skin contact.

My turn:
I cajoled manipulated begged discussed argued persuaded for years. It doesn't mean I was successful all the time... but most times if I was successful it was stated with clarity straight afterwards that I had put another nail into the coffin of our marriage.
Today in a conversation about a lot of this stuff, she admitted that of everything that's what she's most resentful about... the fact that I abused her love for me to get my own fix.
Cut to Friday night - we were cuddling and kissing a bit and at one point she said it was too intense and she was too scared to go further.
Of course now that I am in recovery there was no problem with it, I am happy to give her space and sex is now optional and it can't be just words it has to be real and not fake. 
This is what I am dealing with now. Recovery is only a few months real and she barely has been present for these few months post birth.
But manipulation and cajoling was 17 years..
The fact is that I am saying the same things in recovery that I was saying in active addiction.
The only difference is now I now really mean it.
"No pressure, I want you to be happy, I never want sex that's one sided."
So I dug my own grave and I now have to eat it.
The fact is that it's true now. And only time and actions can fill the hole I dug with a ground to stand on again.
My wife is very sensitive and very guilt ridden which makes it harder. Last night she said to me that I should just leave her and get a wife who won't have all the scars of the past messing her up.
She said this partially because she is fearful of being able to get over the past but also because she feels sorry for me. Isn't that wild! 
Of course I said many things about how ludicrous a statement it was... 
Where did it come from? Maybe from me telling her that even if it takes a year or two for her to be ready for sex that's fine - I can wait.... but she can't be guilt ridden for that whole time!
Thank God we are in therapy and don't have to work through these things alone - they fill
me with a lot of confusion and fears also... And my physical discomfort doesn't make things easier - it confuses things a lot for me. 
Every women is different and we all have our own pekeleh.
What we lose out from such raw emotional honesty we gain from such a close communicative connection.
I know there are many people who would be envious of the open communication we have  over these issues-but for me the raw openness opens up much pain without any filters. 
The bottom line is I spent many years in active addiction and it may take many years of positive sobriety before a real healing will take place between us in the bedroom... and my job right now is to 'live' sex is optional. Or even off the table. And work with the therapist on getting guilt off the table. Building trust  in action and proof of actions.

The discussion should probably move over to the BB forums.
Thanks

Shlomo24 wrote on 26 May 2017 23:45:

Voice to text. But cue yeshivish voice "Eh, Kardashian? What's that? Mistama it's something goyish; I don't know from these things."

                                                                                                                                                                             

                                                                                                                                                                                   

פסחים מ"ט ע"ב: תניא היה רבי מאיר אומר כל המשיא בתו לעם הארץ כאילו כופתה ומניחה לפני ארי מה ארי דורס ואוכל ואין לו בושת פנים אף עם הארץ מכה ובועל ואין לו בושת פנים
תוספות: מה ארי דורס ואוכל. פר"ת דורס ואוכל ואין ממתין עד שתמות אף עם הארץ אינו ממתין עד שתתפייס

שו"ע סי' ר"מ סעי' י': אם היה לו כעס עמה אסור לשמש עד שיפייסנה ויכול לספר עמה קודם תשמיש כדי לרצותה

There is a difference between women & sex toys. [Surprise] Women are human and they have feelings just as men do (maybe even more..). We don't get married so we should have access to a kosher bathroom. We get married to have a partner in life & one of the ways we get emotionally connected to each other is with sex. When a person forces (yes forces, if you make her do something she don't want you force) his wife he is abusing her. If they are married he should find a way to turn her on & if the switch doesn't work? Too bad.

Ieeyc, please send me the marah makom to the gemura you quoted. Thanks.

Pick a piece of gemora as your mentor and run with it.

The Gemara is in Nedarim 20b. It is also mentioned in Halacha. However there is a machlokes Rishonim exactly what the Gemara is referring to.

This is all not relevant L'maaseh. Read Cord's post.
p.s. I was once in a used Seforim store and found a book misinterpreting Gemara's for all types of Apikorsos... Not saying anyone is misinterpreting anything here.

When one has a shaila in hilchos Shabbos does he pasken from a gmora? Of course not. We have to see how the rishonim learned through the inyan down to the Bais Yosef and Rema down to the acharonim and eventually the poskim of today. The same is true in every area of Jewish life. We value all maamarei Chazal but view them through the lens of our poskim. Go ask your rav if you can tell your wife, "Too bad, you are married now. Your husband may do as he pleases." I am sure your rav can explain that gmora appropriately without sacrificing p'shat. And just to note. The amora was speaking to the wife. It is not recorded what or if he told the husband. Maybe he told her what she needed to hear, but also told him what he needed to hear. Just a thought. No intention to offend anyone.

                                                                                                                                                                                     

lionking wrote on 10 Jan 2018 04:51:

thank you for the source ,but missed my point

ca·jole
kəˈjōl/Submit
verb
verb: cajole; 3rd person present: cajoles; past tense: cajoled; past participle: cajoled; gerund or present participle: cajoling
persuade someone to do something by sustained and persistent coaxing or thru undeserving flattery.
"He hoped to cajole her into undressing."
synonyms: persuade, wheedle, convince someone to do something they didn't necessarily want to do, coax, talk into, rape gently, prevail on, sweet-talk, butter up, soft-soap, seduce, inveigle
"I hate it when he cajoles me into engaging in sex."