lionking wrote on 27 Dec 2020 15:54:

O.k. Now we can write up the next installment of Righteous Indignation. I hope it will be scary enough...

Argg (I think that's a lion noise).

I just wrote a long post which got deleted by gye. Is that scary enough?

Either way I do the same thing as you, I have a theory why we do that, I have to pray gye doesnt delete before I get to write it...

lionking wrote on 27 Dec 2020 15:54:

Lol we’re not a bunch of bais yakov girls ..
We all know his power .

I think the scariest part of this is to know that when one views other women he is basically cheating on his wife. Loyalty my friend....

Your stagnant situation sounds very familiar, and the morbidity shines thru, although you might not realize it. The scariest part is the actual morbid state we find ourselves in when in such a mode, giving up the sweetness of life, living in a shell, not even close to utilizing our potential and fulfilling our responsibilities.

One may argue that we aren't shirking our day to day responsibilities, however atleast to me the fundemental responsibility of a spouse and a parent is to be present, to actually be an awake observer, whereas when drinking in lust we are in a fog, with just a minute percent of cognitive presence. 

This all before getting into what HHM has pointed out the cheating and the actual damage this is causing in our habitat, a place where love and trust should be nurtured becomes a place for deceit and hiding, how much beauty and serenity have we sacrificed to this cheap instant gratification.

Guys, I appreciate the responses. I think Ish Migrodno might have said something about the Yetzer trying to stretch out the process. Something to ponder about.

I don't think mggbs is correct with his assessment. I'm not living in a fog of lust all day. I am present and awake for my wife and kids except for the short period of time which I act out. It is like compartmentalized in my brain and not present most of the time.

HHM is spot on as always. Keep it up, maybe you'll make a mentch out of me one day!

For some odd reason I think that is why I B"H don't really struggle with Shmiras Einyeim on the street and perhaps why I'm trying to refrain from porn.
It is models in shopping ads, nude presentations in art and text that causes me to fantasize which is more of my struggle now.
As well as masturbation without any outside stimuli which I struggle with. For example, I'll be in the middle of solving a problem, or in the middle of sleeping, and my hand would find itself over there and by time I realize I'm too aroused to want to stop. Sorry if I was too graphic.

HakolHevel, whenever you get a chance to post your theory I'm ready to listen.

I needed to be near a wedding hall tonight. I was waiting for someone. Girls and ladies were mingling outside and they weren't dressed at all appropriate. I didn't even think twice about not looking, it's like ingrained in me to look away, and I didn't think about them at all. I went on with my life as if nothing has happened.
So why can't I do the same when it comes to porn or masturbation?
Why do I still crave porn?
Why am I not disgusted by it?

Something to ponder about.

Good night everyone

This sounds like me.
In the street for the most part I try hard to keep focused and not look at woman or girls (not every time am I successful on my voyage)
but on my phone is a whole different story.
So far my filter has been serving it's purpose.

A point about being in a fog. Not to project my struggle on to you, however seldom do I consciously realize this while lusting, it is after a period of sobriety when this comes to light.

lionking wrote on 28 Dec 2020 06:33:

Before I give my two cents, let me state first 'publicly' that I am guilty as well of this.  This way people shouldn't be critical of my theory, I attribute it to myself as well.

WE ARE INGRAINED FAKERS.  We grew up learning to look away, so when we are in public we do it because otherwise people may see us checking out the eye-candy.  It became second-nature to us to act this way in public because of the humiliation and shame we would get if we would put our desires on full display.  So much so that we don't have to think twice.  We think it's coming from real yiras shomayim. We even think, 'that's so horrible and shmutzy.' But when we are in the comfort of our homes and our privacy...  If you would be in a spot where you could not be seen by anyone, would you be turning away?  I wouldn't unless I was fighting the urge very hard.

We know the concept of יהי רצון שתהא מורא שמים עליכם כמורא בשר ודם .  But even more than that, in some nuschaos (Ari?) we say in davening, לעולם יהא אדם ירא שמים בסתר כבגלוי.  this is a more powerful statement, that there is a level of yiras shomayim (not bosor vdom) in public different than in private.  לעניות דעתי this is saying that a person really thinks the deterrent in public is from yiras shomayim, not from bosor vdom.  But the fact that it is different in public and private proves what it really is, just a conditioning to do what's right in front of others.

​Halevay our instincts in private should be developed to react the same way as in public.

lionking wrote on 27 Dec 2020 15:54:

Same here.  The YH likes to get us to do things that have an aspect of hetter or avoiding worse issur, so we can do it and feel good that 'at least I didn't watch real porn.'  This way he harnesses the Yetzer Tov to do his will (the opposite of what we say in Shma בכל לבבך בשני יצרך, obviously it can go both ways).  It may be worse than watching all-out porn (though I am not saying you should choose one over the other) because it cements it in your mind with holy intentions.

I've been reading recently on the forums about people watching movies, nothing too dirty.  I've been there, there is nothing which is not 'too dirty' for us chevra.  Don't fool yourselves.  If you had a choice to watch an all-male cast or a mixed one, which would you choose!? (I'm not speaking to our choshuve SSA chevra, whose challenges and heroism I can't begin to fathom).  There is no way (I speak for myself, but others should hear as well) other than to stop watching movies and shows completely.

ThisTimeIllWin, I hear you. However I think the real reason is, with a live person there is an emotional bond, which I feel is betrayal towards my wife. As well as I feel that I am taking something from them without their permission and using them as objects of my desire, which is like stealing.
On the other hand, models are sharing themselves with others, and photoshopped pictures are paintings aren't real. The same with text.
That's my theory. Perhaps I need to realize that my body is not mine as well and I'm stealing from Hashem.

I also find that it's easier to look away when this person attempts to preserve her privacy. 
I find that when someone dresses 'borderline tznius' and parts get more uncovered occasionally I would look there bec she doesn't seem to be too bothered, just trying to keep to the rules. But when someone dresses extra frum and something gets uncovered it's easier not to look, even when no one can see me, it feels more like I'm invading her privacy. 

Never thought of it as a betrayal against my wife though, I'm not thinking of lust, just enjoy seeing skin... 

I guess that's also betrayal, but that's not why I'm not looking 


Practically speaking, does anyone here think that training ourselves not to look at nudity and porn and training ourselves not to look around on the street are totally unrelated (at least for those who are not hardcore addicts)? Could it be that it's a totally separate taavah? 

lionking wrote on 28 Dec 2020 14:00:

The way I see it, there's a few differences. 

1. The desire for porn and masturbation is simply greater than the desire to ogle women. 

2. Like you wrote. You are looking at a live person, and you understand it's wrong to pleasure yourself from an innocent bystander without her knowledge. On the other hand,  actresses and people posting pictures are offering themselves to you, on a silver platter.

3. Here's a shot in the dark. The women by a wedding for example, are the same as your wife. They all offer the same things. Choosing them over your wife doesn't feel right. On the other hand, what porn and masturbation (the availability) gives you is something your wife can never offer. This causes you to subconsciously justify and you don't feel as bad about it.

4. Certain areas were נעשית לו כהיתר and some weren't. Sort of the same way you can masturbate, yet would never transgress something else with the equivalent punishment. 

Now,  about the cheating/disloyal aspect. You included pornography, but not masturbation. In my opinion masturbation is a form of cheating too. Included in a marriage, is the unspoken agreement that all sexual pleasure is exclusively reserved when together with the spouse. Masturbation is an abuse of that trust. It is a person experience something that should only be experienced from/with their spouse. 

                                  Grant 

Why do we seek semi erotic content of we know we can bypass the filter?

A couple reasons, 1. As you said, it can increase arousal.

But I think deeper than that, the hardest thing for a person is not physical pain, rather physiological or emotional pain. That's why so many of us get into porn to begin with to escape...

Either way, when we start off looking for porn, we look at ourselves in a very negative light, so we look for semi erotic so we can still look at ourselves in the mirror and say in a good person. 

Personally I find I do this all the time in different forms. So say I masturbated without porn, I tell myself I'm still a did person because hey, I don't even look at porn? Similarly even when I would look at porn I would tell myself. Well at least you didn't go into chat sites..

Do you relate at all?

One more reason I would do it. Sometimes I would look at semi erotic stuff for a week or two, until I would "give in" and watch porn because " I have to" it was another way of saying I'm not at fault, I came here innocently, and now my urges are to much. I have too, there is no other choice.