My finest points are lost!!! Guess you can't use bullet points within a quotation.

Here they are:

• Torah and Mussar will help a struggling, healthy Yid. The struggle is their. It's our birthright. And overcoming it will bring us closer to Hashem.
• Torah and Mussar will NOT help an addict. And addict is insane. Behaviours are compulsive, excessive and progressive.
• What WILL help an addict? Openness, honesty, social connection and integration and a working program of sobriety with a clearly-defined bottom line.

Have you done the 20 questions of SA, Colin? I  get hesitant when people call themselves addicts.

Singularity wrote on 24 Jan 2017 08:16:


Singularity,

You are rocking the forum! You're mood is upbeat and catchy and you're all over all the threads; I love it! (As long as you don't tell ME something honest I need to hear

Thank you WorkingGuy and Singularity

I am an addict, this has been my behaviour for over 30 years.
My fallback during stress.

WorkingGuy - I posted a link to an article a month or so ago.
It was a very long medical paper about addiction, and how it rewires the brain.
The addict's brain grows receptors between neurotransmitters, these receptors crave for dopamine.
The conclusion of the article was that the desire for the addictive substance increases during clean periods.
So even though the 90 Day program is useful, it is not something that helps on a neurological level.
I am not angry that I have fallen, but I do want to prevent future falls.

The article is on this link

guardyoureyes.com/forum/1-Break-Free/298325-Do-not-be-angry-if-you-have-a-relapse

Singularity - My reading identifies one huge difference between sex addicts and other addicts.
We all crave the dopamine high and the adrenaline rush, and use these to cope with stress or use them at other times.
But the sex addict (whether it is acting out, internet porn or meeting prostitutes) is also craving something natural...affection, touch, emotional connection.
The other addictions are much more learned behaviours, more contrived.
It is just that we stimulate our natural desire in a warped way.

So for us on here, it is harder. It is why the 12 Step programme has far less success with us than for instance, alcohol addicts.

We are fighting a different fight.

What will I do when I am not Hungry, Angry, Lonely or Tired?
Those are my main stimuli.
I rarely if ever have a problem if they are not present.

Anyway, my main task now is to pull myself out of what you call "The Lust Bubble" which surrounds me at times. To simply recognise that I am in it.
I have yet to achieve that.

Of course, to pre-empt it would be best.

I think I can only do that be reminding myself every hour that I am susceptible to fall.

People like me cannot live "One day at a time" it is much more about "Taking the day hour by hour."

Thanks Colin, Im so identifying with this right now.
I am only now finally understanding the HALT.
But its creating a further confusion for me as it stands right now, because i'm becoming tired angry hungry and lonely as a result of continuously wanting that connection of intimacy and not getting it.
I gave up on the orgasm, but something had to take its place.
I'm feeling unable to give up the part of me that needs nurturing, and im feeling rejected for not getting it.
And this is not about sex or orgasming. (right now)
The main difference is that now i'm not turning to it to release the dopamine, and so now im facing the feelings for what they are.
So for the first time in my life this week i have felt what depression is like. Because i didnt fill it up with a dopamine release.
So whats interesting is i think i am feeling what life is like "outside the lust bubble' for the first time in my life and its hitting me with a lot of mixed feelings and emotions.
And my poor wife has too much going on to deal with my feelings of rejection - which ultimately are so shallow and fake compared to whats real out there YET THEY FEEL SO REAL.

Sorry for hijacking the thread with my mess.

Hi GrowStrong

I understand you.

I think the first issue with depression is actually realising one is depressed.
Too often we don't realise, and then talk to someone who is not depressed and realise we have a cloud over us and inside us, diminishing our good qualities and replacing them with sadness and hurt.

My own response to depression, if I realise I have it, is to try something positive actions.

Prayer - either formalised prayers or personal talking to Hashem (Hitbodedut style).

Study - whether it is Jewish study or reading a factual book for my own interest.

Creation - making music or making art.

Organising - clearing up a messy room or sorting through a filing cabinet.

Exercise - even if it is just going for a walk.

Talk to a friend - maybe they actually needed to talk to me but were too down to pick up the phone?

That way even if I still feel down, at least I have achieved something.

There is an interesting thought from our sages via Rabbi Michoel Gourarie that if we give up a negative action we must replace it with a positive one to avoid a vacuum into which more negative things can flow.
(He explains that is why we cannot drink a regular beverage between the 3rd and 4th cups at a Pesach Seder because these represent "I will redeem you" followed by "I will take you for a nation". We need to replace leaving Egypt by building Israel.)
I stumbled on this thought tonight - no such thing as coincidence!

But, I hear you.
The feelings are real and it shows that one can feel this whether inside or outside a relationship.

One thing is that I will not take anti-depressants as I believe they cause other problems, but each to their own.

I did hear that Yaacov Aveinu suffered from depression, and his remedy was simply to let it pass. One source said that when he lay down on the stone before the dream of the angels climbing the ladder, this was because he was depressed and needed to rest until the depression lifted. 
The depression signifies one is pushing up to reach a new spiritual level, and depression is how the evil forces try to make us sin and not reach that level.

ColinColin wrote on 24 Jan 2017 17:53:

I wonder if this is true. Anyone else want to comment? I wonder if junkies also want an emotional connection of sorts. Must be. Why else are you using?

Also, One Day at a Time is not a sugya in timeframes. So if 1 day is too long, substitute 1 hour. Or if you can handle more, now go to 1 week. ODAAT is the idea that there actually is no tomorrow. Or yesterday. That I'm going to do what is asked of me today. Because thinking I won't be able to act out for the rest of my life, well, it'll kill me. But if I can be sober today, for that is all I really care about...

One of the most basic yesodos that I read a long time ago about addiction is that all addicts are filling a void with their drug of choice. Yes, with SA it is true that PERHAPS we are craving an emotional connection, but it might also be that we just have a void of emptiness and are picking this pleasurable behavior to fill it.

My sponsor says to me all the time "You have a God-sized hole inside you."

Shlomo24 wrote on 26 Jan 2017 02:18:

Funny. I got the same message from Bruce Almighty.

What makes our addiction so different is that it is natural.
People are not born with a natural desire and need for alcohol or gambling.

But a need for human intimacy is part of our genetic programming.

So we are feeling guilty about something we are meant to be doing, it is just that we are not doing it in a healthy or halachic way.

For the record: these distinctions make little difference to me.

ColinColin wrote on 27 Jan 2017 00:22:

I hear what you're saying, but that doesn't seem to make a difference. Sex addiction is just like any other. Lust isn't intimacy. Lust is quite the opposite. I don't need to "channel" my lust. I need to have God protect me from it, if it is his will.

Shlomo24

It is possible that what compels us to act out and look at innapropriate images is a different trigger for you and a different trigger for me.

For me, this happens 99% of the time when I am depressed...when I feel wretched.

If I am happy and well rested I do not seek comfort from the bad behaviour.
So my innappropriate behaviour is me seeking intimacy but in a warped way..a surrogate intimacy that is empty.
To dull an inner pain.

Right now I feel OK, and have no compulsion to look at wrong images. It is honestly like I am a different person from one week ago.

For those who perhaps have a lust issue very day, and fight the Yetzer Horah, this article is interesting.
It is about how Baal Teshuvas need to be honest about their spiritual level to avoid big spiritual crashes which lead to sin.

www.breslev.co.il/articles/spirituality_and_faith/spiritual_growth/the_bt_bubble_burst.aspx?id=30176&language=english

ColinColin wrote on 24 Jan 2017 17:53:


 Colin, you're an inspiration, never giving up. Many people would fall all the way down after falling following 8 months. And then 6 months. But you haven't given up. We're put here to be pushed, and you're pushing right back.

There's a book that's quoted here, the Power of Habits by a CharlesI Duhigg (s/r like that). If you never read it before, it's definitely worth the read. Even though I'm not an addict, it seems like it can be very beneficial. 

The other thing I wanted to mentionI is that you mentioned feeling a void, you feel loneliness. Don't laugh, I'm pretty sure we can connect to God enough to take away that feeling of loneliness. Too tired to elaborate now perhaps next week...