I'm not trying to say that's what everyone says an addict is, but I have heard that exact logic in the groups.

My response was because a previous post used the line "who says they were real addicts?", in response to my claim that therapists have said they have successfully treated addicts. I.e., the person was trying to say that perhaps the therapist were being successful with these people, but only because they weren't actually addicts. Do you see how it fits in now?

I agree with you, the definition is difficult and complex. It doesn't really matter to me, whatever works for whoever it works for.

Thanks for your response. I didn't mean to discount other methods or approaches. Personally I'm engaging in various approaches. As far as SA goes, I don't think into it, I just do it. So I can't really respond as to whether or not there is circular reasoning or things make sense or not. I do know that it the common experience of non-Jewish SA program people, who have a lot of good sobriety, that many yidden think way too much about whether the program works instead of just doing it. I'm not sure if when you are saying "Groups" that you are referring to SA or not. The groups are not the essential part of SA. AA, which SA is based on started with individuals and groups were not a part of the program. Anyway this is all academic. I'm not sure you answered this question yet, which may be more than academic: Of the many solutions you have in your head, which ones have you fully implemented and where do you think they failed you?

Hatzlacha!

Hey thanks, I didn't mean to judge. I think you're right with your point that a Jewish mind gets more caught up in thinking about things. But G-d knows how to make us, so I have to believe that's for a reason, maybe it's just to be used in a different way.

The best thing I've done so far has been IFS. I had about 6 months sobriety in SA at one point but it didn't give me the type of clarity I got in IFS therapy. That's just what I found. There were a lot of very good things about groups of course (one of the reasons I decided to start writing here was the need to talk it out and not keep it inside).

and from the sound of your posts, it sounds like it is bein' productive, so keep on postin'!

Ditto to what Cordnoy said. Thank you for your last comment, I appreciate it. I'm not familiar with IFS, but I will look up online and read about it. Personally, I don't think there is any one way to recovery and I didn't mean to imply that. Also I know very little about recovery, I don't even know if SA will work for me. AA worked for me and both programs have worked for many people who were far worse off that I was. Could be that other programs or methods work also. I'm not sure how much I gain from SA meetings. I think it's more program work that I do and the person to person fellowship. AA meetings are a different story. I get the sense at times at the SA unnecessarily and maybe detrimentally has changed some of the AA ideals, although I'm not sure I can or want to point to examples here. I don't think SA excludes other methods either and I'm engaged in several as I mentioned. To me and this is just my experience, to much of my thinking isn't good when there is action to be taken. I think (lol) Torah would agree with that as well, yes? ולא המדרש עיקר, אלא המעשה

I hear what you're saying. There's actually a whole bunch of AA recordings by two oldtimers, Joe and Charlie, about how the AA meetings grew very apart from the AA program described in the book. In some ways, the SA book itself adds and changes some things from the AA program, as they maintain the disease needs a slightly different program. But I think you're right that there's not much to be gained by pointing all this out and over thinking it.

I'm not sure that mishna is so related, I think p'shat over there is that it's not good to be a hypocrite, i.e., it's not good to learn something that not apply it. But what you're saying doesn't need a source in particular, it's just good sense. I found it just confused me more when I tried to fit whatever I was doing for my wellbeing into various statements from chazal.

"I found it just confused me more when I tried to fit whatever I was doing for my wellbeing into various statements from chazal."

Very good advice!

Hey Dan. Welcome! (To posting)

I had this talk with my therapist about What considers someone an addict or not. After a few minutes I told him "who cares, point is, I wanna stop and can't". And I believe that's what it really boils down to. If you really wanna stop youl do wtvr takes, be it therapy or SA groups or the like, regardless if your an addict or not. Like serenity said you gotta do it, not think about it, cuz if your really that desperate to stop you won't care about the pilpul(theory) involved. Your gonna do wtvr works. And like everyone on here says. You gotta find what works for you. Hatzlocha!

Thanks for the post.

I'm in a rough spot, I hope I can get some more listening ears.

It's just stupid, what I'm up to. I put a bunch of energy pursuing lust, and then I decide I don't want it, and then back again. I spend a bunch of money, and then throw away everything and say "that's it, I don't want it."

I'm in this therapy, and I know it works -- I've seen it work for me, it didn't last though, I hadn't made it to that stage of the work. It should work, if I'm consistent. But in the meantime, it's like I just have to hold on.

I hope some people can relate to this other feelings -- I feel totally unable to commit to anything. Right now, I wanna ask for help with accountability. Just like day to day, stay accountable. But I don't believe I'll keep my commitments. I'll lie, plain and simple. I won't respond. Part of me wants to do all of this, and part of me doesn't want to.

I'm listening and I totally relate. Thank you for being here and posting.

I totally, entirely, utterly, and completely relate.

Any time you want to chat, send me a message.

Kinda hits me right in the gut!
most of what you wrote - i could have.

We are here for you.

b'hatzlachah