[/quote]
BRILLIANT, BRILLIANT, BRILLIANT. Everything brilliant!
Well done. Keep up the great work. This day 1 was possibly equal to (or more?) than the 77 that preceded it. It is certainly the yesod for a great future.[/quote]

Thank you for that shlomo,

That really means a lot to me and wanted to tell you thank you.

Hope

It is my greatest pleasure. I was so glad you had this great attitude and did it too. So well done again an keep up the good work.

shlomo613 wrote:


If you yourself have not been using meetings then I think it might be worth reconsidering before suggesting that anyone else go to them. And I go to meetings and owe my life to them, b"H. Still, they are not for everyone with struggles.

Also, if he is a minor, it is usually actually illegal for him to attend an SA meeting with adults. One of the sad and silly things about GYE is that you can be a suffering 60 year-old man tottering on the brink of another divorce, after one failed marriage and 2 recent affairs, posting back and forth with someone spewing sage advice to you for weeks and weeks...only to finally find out that he is a 17 year-old philosopher in a dorm room somewhere! And he is only so wise because he just finished masturbating himself to porn an hour ago again! (All of us have had that feeling of being so clear on right and wrong right after we blow it and 'know better now', aren't we?). Fake names, often (but not always) fake people. Nu.



Finally, the majority of guys here are not addicts. They just have yetzer horas and penises - a very shaky combination, really. I get the feeling based on reading a bit of the posts here that you could reconsider your definition on addiction so that it does not turn everything Chaza"l wrote about as though it were 'about addiction all along'.
For if it were, then...
- Why does nothing Chaza"l tell us addicts to do, actually work for hardly any of us alcoholics and sexaholics? Try saying "eretz Chitti emori and prizi" and see how far that gets an addict...How many tevilos did addicts I know take? Endless...
- Why do the majority of good, solid Rebbis out there still sincerely believe and teach suffering talmidim that "when you get married, most of these problems will mostly go away", given that every addict I have ever met (including myself) found out exactly the opposite - that our problem usually gets much worse after we are married a while?
- Why do hundreds of us (frum guys I know personally) get better following what the goyim of AA tell us to do after all the Torah sources and yeshivas have only made them worse and worse?

How can this failing be? It's the Torah we are talking about here! Hashem is perfect and His Torah is perfect!

But Torah does not help you fix your car, get your bowels regular, or cure a broken arm.

Is that a 'failing of Torah'?

I think not.

Same for addiction.

Tayvoh - Torah cures. Sinning - Torah cures. But not addiction.

Do alcoholics get sent to the beis midrash? Nope. Not even by rabbonim. So why are we fixated on sex addiction being "Teshuva"? Just because that drug happens to be a sin makes it suddenly different? Nahrishkeit.

Sex addicts are no different than any goy or Jew who is an alcoholic, heroin addicts or gambling addict. The compulsion is the same and has nothing to do with sinning. If somehow masturbation were a mitzvah, us sex addicts would not be able to continue doing it, just as frum alcoholics do not drink arba kosos if wine is the only drink available. Just cuz our addictive behavior happens to also be a sin - for which we are 100% responsible by the way - does not make it suddenly 'under the power of Torah and Teshuvah'.

And for those who are not addicts, but just desirous youngsters with penises and adolescent ego-confusion (that is, a Yetzer Hora), calling it "addiction" only makes it worse and more confusing.

But Maslow wisely said, "The man who has only a hammer in his toolbox, thinks every problem is a nail."

'Please reconsider' is all I am saying. Painting everyone who wants to stop but isn't stopping yet, as 'an addict' is destructive and confusing. And it messes up the groups, filling them with non-addicts for whom the program often cannot work. And as Hopeful2 already wrote, all he wants to do is have sex. Take him at face value - he speaks the simple truth. He is saying to you that he does not really want to quit for good. He is honest. He lusts for 'being clean'...but if he really lost his power to masturbate or have sex with anyone else other than his future wife, instead of rejoicing, one of two things would probably happen:

1- he'd have a nervous breakdown, or
2- he'd hurry up and follow the advice of many rebbis, to get married quick, so he could have sex soon! (and trash the marriage when he discovers that sex with a woman does not solve his problem at all)

And I would not blame him for either stupid solution one bit.

And in reality, his compulsive masturbation issue is far more sensitive and complex than 'addict or not addict'. He probably needs therapy. Good therapy.

Sending him to 12 step groups now, may be even worse than him just staying on GYE! Because the groups will probably offer him an answer he is not ready for, and pretending that he can 'control himself with some help' that he gets on his own, is just silly. Not a favor. The 12 step groups do not exactly grab you and crazy-glue your zipper shut,, you know. As the gemora says, "ein apotropos l'arayos"! The groups just allow you to find the help you need - if you are ready to commit. Few kids are ready to commit to anything but their penises, and maybe sometimes their religion. But even that commitment is usually sporadic at best. Therapy (good therapy) is better for them.

Thank you Dov!

Slightly off topic, I once asked somebody who said SA didn't work for him, if he in fact worked the program, how far he gotten in the steps and was he willing to go to any lengths for sobriety. His answer was, "what was I supposed to do, chain myself to a radiator pipe?" He didn't answer the other part of the question, so he probably didn't work the steps thoroughly if at all. The part he did answer said a world about his misunderstanding of the program and how to recover from addiction. Dov's advice and words are obviously spot on. There is so much work a person can do right here on GYE that I don't see many people talking about that they have done. Most importantly are the tools and the the phone conferences. The Big Book study group etc. And talk to someone here on the phone who is a recovered addict, like Dov, and discuss if SA may be for you. Half the advice on the forums are given by people like me who are into recovery or by people who just masturbated 5 minutes ago. We can't give what we don't have guys. I often will copy and paste from the AA Big Book or SA White Book. The reason I do that is because those books contain sage advice from people who have recovered. What I think is not only likely flawed in some way, it probably isn't 100% honest.

Hatzlacha!

Okay Dov,
I didn't understand a lot of what you said but I got the gist of it and i'm sure the rest of it will come to me some time.
I'm happy to give less advice. I do feel like I've over-extended myself a bit on the forum - in more than one way.
I get the point about the toolbox and advice that's inappropriate as not everyone is an addict.
The question of whether I'm an addict doesn't exercise me unduly (it used to) but I get that it makes a big difference what you prescribe. Maybe one day I will ask someone whether my story suggests I'm an addict. For some reason I'm resistant to doing that now, maybe because what I'm doing seems to be working for me.
And by the way Dov I love the toichocho. Bang bang bang, but said so respectfully. I appreciate that.

I'm in the same boat as you Shlomo, i didn't seem to understand all that Dov wrote either.

At first you seem to imply that its more then just a YH and a strong urge, indicating that it is an addiction, then you go and say the majority here aren't addicts.

With that being said can you describe an addict?

Also why do you say I'm a 17 year old who said "all he wants is to have sex"? I happened to be married with kids....

Hope

I don't think Dov was saying that you're a minor. I think he was saying that someone may not know if you are one.

Dov's words are to me a breath of fresh air and here comes my take on most of it. Dov's words in Blue.

If you yourself have not been using meetings then I think it might be worth reconsidering before suggesting that anyone else go to them. And I go to meetings and owe my life to them, b"H. Still, they are not for everyone with struggles.

Needs no explanation, agree?

Also, if he is a minor, it is usually actually illegal for him to attend an SA meeting with adults. One of the sad and silly things about GYE is that you can be a suffering 60 year-old man tottering on the brink of another divorce, after one failed marriage and 2 recent affairs, posting back and forth with someone spewing sage advice to you for weeks and weeks...only to finally find out that he is a 17 year-old philosopher in a dorm room somewhere! And he is only so wise because he just finished masturbating himself to porn an hour ago again! (All of us have had that feeling of being so clear on right and wrong right after we blow it and 'know better now', aren't we?). Fake names, often (but not always) fake people. Nu.

We really don't know who we are talking to here, even if they tell us about themselves. They can be making up a fake persona. Personally I may be naive but I think most people commenting regularly here are genuine. That being said many of us including myself tend to hand out a lot of advice without a lot of qualification. Whenever you sign in here a message pops up that says share your experience and what works for you and try not to give advice. We can't give what we don't have.

************


Finally, the majority of guys here are not addicts. They just have yetzer horas and penises - a very shaky combination, really. I get the feeling based on reading a bit of the posts here that you could reconsider your definition on addiction so that it does not turn everything Chaza"l wrote about as though it were 'about addiction all along'.
For if it were, then...
- Why does nothing Chaza"l tell us addicts to do, actually work for hardly any of us alcoholics and sexaholics? Try saying "eretz Chitti emori and prizi" and see how far that gets an addict...How many tevilos did addicts I know take? Endless...
- Why do the majority of good, solid Rebbis out there still sincerely believe and teach suffering talmidim that "when you get married, most of these problems will mostly go away", given that every addict I have ever met (including myself) found out exactly the opposite - that our problem usually gets much worse after we are married a while?
- Why do hundreds of us (frum guys I know personally) get better following what the goyim of AA tell us to do after all the Torah sources and yeshivas have only made them worse and worse?

Addiction is an illness. For most addicts Torah didn't help the addiction and marriage didn't help the addiction. A sex addict is not unlike an alcoholic or a compulsive over eater. Did you ever see a holy scrupulous Rav, mashgiach, mashpiah or Rosh Yeshivah etc who was severely obese or drink copious amounts of alcohol. Do you think they are gluttons or excessive and foolish drinkers? For Chabad did you ever have a mashpiah talk about iscafiah and self control and live a life in accordance with those principles and at the same time eat like pigs. We usually just let that pass for some reason. For awhile I thought wow these people are fake. Well maybe they are fake or maybe they are addicts and are powerless when it comes to food or alcohol. How about when the Lubavitcher Rebbe Zetzal, said to limit drinking and people straight up ignore the words of a man they would otherwise give their lives before disobeying. If The Rebbe said don't eat more than 4 peas a day, would you have a problem with that? So why do so many have a problem to limit their drinking. I don't mean run of the mill people who just like to drink. I mean serious guys who take every word seriously. Maybe they are full of it or maybe they are addicts. The problem for us is that religion clouds the issue. We want to do the act, but Torah doesn't want us to and we want to keep Torah. But if not for Torah we would be happy to masturbate and it wouldn't hurt our lives. For me regardless of what Torah says, I cannot masturbate because lust was ruining my life. It was taking away from family, my business, my time, energy and health. In fact it was only after a point when I gave myself total permission to do it from a Torah perspective. I had to because the religious guilt was destroying me and my emunah all together. Once I was free of that Torah obligation, I was able to see that Torah or no Torah this disease was destroying me.

As Dov said I did everything religious wise to escape this compulsion and obsession and nothing helped. I thought marriage would help and things only got worse.


How can this failing be? It's the Torah we are talking about here! Hashem is perfect and His Torah is perfect!

But Torah does not help you fix your car, get your bowels regular, or cure a broken arm.

Is that a 'failing of Torah'?

I think not.

Same for addiction.

Addiction is a sickness. An addict is broken. Go to where there is healing, just like you do when you have a cold.

Tayvoh - Torah cures. Sinning - Torah cures. But not addiction.

Do alcoholics get sent to the beis midrash? Nope. Not even by rabbonim. So why are we fixated on sex addiction being "Teshuva"? Just because that drug happens to be a sin makes it suddenly different? Nahrishkeit.


If it's a normal Tayvoh, the Torah has the answers. Most people are normal and healthy and can be helped by Torah. Does that mean they will never sin? Well are they ztadikim gamurim?

An sugar addict, can't eat sugar. A guy who is 10 pounds over weight can eat sugar. He can do some exercise and use portion control. A guy who drinks a bit too much once a week, can read a sicha about limiting alcohol or a medical journal and cut back. Tell me I can't ham, I'm fine with that. I'll just eat beef. Tell me I can't eat sugar ever again, we may have a problem.


Sex addicts are no different than any goy or Jew who is an alcoholic, heroin addicts or gambling addict. The compulsion is the same and has nothing to do with sinning. If somehow masturbation were a mitzvah, us sex addicts would not be able to continue doing it, just as frum alcoholics do not drink arba kosos if wine is the only drink available. Just cuz our addictive behavior happens to also be a sin - for which we are 100% responsible by the way - does not make it suddenly 'under the power of Torah and Teshuvah'.


I think this is mostly self explanatory at this point. My experience: I used to gamble (forget about the halacha of it for a min). Gambling pretty much nearly destroyed my life. I cannot gamble even for 5 cents or even to play draidel for nuts. In fact I don't even touch cards. I don't drink alcohol. As Dov said, even if I was at the seder and there was no grape juice, I couldn't drink wine. So If I'm a sex addict, I can't engage in compulsive sexual behaviors, even ones that are otherwise permissible or a mitsvah. (See Baal habatim's section). Which means as part of my recovery I may have to separate from my wife for extended periods of time.

And for those who are not addicts, but just desirous youngsters with -------- and adolescent ego-confusion (that is, a Yetzer Hora), calling it "addiction" only makes it worse and more confusing.

No need to label a kid as an addict, if he isn't. Life for a teen is tough and confusing enough.


But Maslow wisely said, "The man who has only a hammer in his toolbox, thinks every problem is a nail."

'Please reconsider' is all I am saying. Painting everyone who wants to stop but isn't stopping yet, as 'an addict' is destructive and confusing. And it messes up the groups, filling them with non-addicts for whom the program often cannot work.

Self explanatory.

And as Hopeful2 already wrote, all he wants to do is have sex. Take him at face value - he speaks the simple truth. He is saying to you that he does not really want to quit for good. He is honest. He lusts for 'being clean'...but if he really lost his power to masturbate or have sex with anyone else other than his future wife, instead of rejoicing, one of two things would probably happen:

1- he'd have a nervous breakdown, or
2- he'd hurry up and follow the advice of many rebbis, to get married quick, so he could have sex soon! (and trash the marriage when he discovers that sex with a woman does not solve his problem at all)

And I would not blame him for either stupid solution one bit.

I do not believe Dov is trying to paint hopeful2 into a box here. I also don't believe Dov is really talking to Hopeful2 here. He is saying that knowing nothing about Hopeful2, lets take his statement as face value. And then lets talk about a person (not necessarily Hopeful2) who really doesn't want to give up sex. For example, I am willing to give up sex for life right now, if I have to in order to be healthy and live a healthy life. I believe sex is optional for me and if I don't believe that, I will relapse and probably get arrested. (he may be an addict or not).

I'm a little confused about Dov is saying here.

I will say the statement "He lusts for 'being clean'" is extremely insightful and brilliant. The way I understand this (not sure Dov means this) many people lust after being Gedolim, top learners, better than the rest, and it's all based in ego. But, they have one problem, they know deep down that are leading a double life and so they lust after being clean.

And in reality, his compulsive masturbation issue is far more sensitive and complex than 'addict or not addict'. He probably needs therapy. Good therapy.

Addicts in recovery come to find out that being an addict is an advantage, because there is a simple solution to their addiction. I often think about the guy who is frum and not an addict and wonder what is going on there? I know it killed me as a bachur to keep sinning and sinning when I wanted to be frum. So eventually I had to believe I just didn't want to be frum. Until someone said, I listened to your story and you are powerless over lust. 35 years of obsession was lifted in a moment.

Sending him to 12 step groups now, may be even worse than him just staying on GYE! Because the groups will probably offer him an answer he is not ready for, and pretending that he can 'control himself with some help' that he gets on his own, is just silly. Not a favor. The 12 step groups do not exactly grab you and crazy-glue your zipper shut,, you know. As the gemora says, "ein apotropos l'arayos"! The groups just allow you to find the help you need - if you are ready to commit. Few kids are ready to commit to anything but their penises, and maybe sometimes their religion. But even that commitment is usually sporadic at best. Therapy (good therapy) is better for them.

I think this sheds a little light on the part that I said I'm not sure I understand. As I said above Dov isn't labeling anyone in his comment. He's saying here, I think, that even if Hopeful2 for example is an addict, if he isn't ready for the solution SA has to offer, then it could be detrimental. An essential principle of SA, is that people come when they are ready.

There is a lot of stuff to do here on GYE. I rarely see anyone who talks about what they are doing. Have they implemented all the tools? Do they go to the phone conferences? Have they read or are they reading all the advice from the official people here? Have they read the Big Book and the White Book? Are they in therapy? Do they have a web chaver? etc etc etc The only thing I generally hear is 90 day chart, posting in forums, filters and Taphsic.

The one really helpful thing that most people are unwilling to do is pick up a phone and talk to someone.

I forgot the most important thing ! Dov didn't say the 12-Steps aren't helpful in life in general. He said SA won't be helpful for a non-addict and can be detrimental for someone who isn't ready for it. The 12-steps are great tools for life for anyone!

hatzlacha!

Wow Serenity, Thanks for the scholarly commentary. I'm not sure if that was Rashi, Tosfos or the Ran. Can we maybe get artscroll to translate it now?
Like I said I believe I got Dov's point. I believe I understand where he's coming from - because I've been receiving the GYE emails for years - so i get the message even if I don't understand the words.

Hopeful,
I notice that you're on One day. How are things going? You will pick yourself up because you're out of isolation, you're engaging and we're together.

serenity wrote:


Best part of your whole post!

BTW, dov is often hard to understand. I still don't get, or necessarily agree with, everything he says, but his words helped me more than anything else. Oh, and joining his phone conferences helped a lot too.

Wow serenity! Thanks for the write up!

But who would be considered an addict? Dov seems to be saying that most here aren't addicts. Yet most here would really like to stop but cant. Most here understand how it effects their lives ( negatively) yet cant stop. Most here have been doing it for years and cant stop. So what if most aren't willing to do everything in their power to stop, does that make them non-addicts? Just because their lives aren't totally unmanageable, & they don't feel they have to attend a 12 step program, doesn't make them non-addicts. IMHO

Maybe we can get a quote from the White-book serenity? I actually tried finding the definition in the white-book but didn't find it. and also what is so harmful for a non-addict to attend a 12 step program, other then maybe getting more exposed to the extent others have fallen and then follow..

Hope

shlomo613 wrote:


Things are tough, thanks for asking

Cant seem to manage the stress levels and don't know how to properly handle my emotions....same old just a new day..

Hope

Well, you had an amazing run recently. That's money in your account. You will draw on it when you make efforts in the near future. And don't be disheartened over these falls and wonder what you've lost. It often goes like that. In our earlier conversation I think I quoted rabbi Tatz, that that's how the journey of growth invariably goes: You have that initial flash that illuminates your way, inspires you and shows you what you can achieve. Then it becomes dark again - and now it's your turn to stumble through the darkness in the direction you know you must take - to get to that destination you've already tasted. It's the bechina of Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov. Avraham being the light, Yitzchak being that dark long journey, and Yakov being when it comes together again - but now it's earned, it's yours and it's all the more real and greater.