Hashiva, What a wonderful post. Thank you for sharing that experience with us.

Here is the article, for anyone who wants read it. guardyoureyes.com/articles/12-step/item/sick-of-the-nuclear-reset-button?category_id=31

Perhaps the reason Dov directed you to that article because it discusses the role we have religion play in out acting out. I would explain what I mean, but I'm afraid I won't do it well because I'm not really sure myself .

Read the article carefully and see if you can explain what I mean any better than I can .

serenity wrote:


This is the first time in history when plagiarism was committed by one person on someone else's behalf without him requesting it and without him even knowing. I graciously accept your compliment of which I am am completely unworthy.

serenity wrote:


Just for the record the post about Dov i wrote to Hashivali. Is there a reply from Hashiva that serenity is talking about ? Please enlighten me.Thanks.

newaction wrote:


Hashiva is the catalyst and the impetus for all the superb posts on this thread....he deserves all the credit and thanks.

Thank you hashiva.

newaction wrote:
It was rebelling because of my parents,my friends,my wife , my lot in life , my money (or lack of it),my health , my kids , my in-laws, the IRS in short yes it was REBELLING AGAINST HASHEM ; plain and honest.
And about what you are delving now (i am not so sure), in a very generalist definition, religion(mitzvos) we do with our body , spirituality with our mind ( or חובות הלבבות ).

well then in your case i wouldn't have said what i said.now i didnt do a scientific survey, but i would venture to say that in the GOOD majority of cases, addictions dont start because of rebellion.the age of ben sorer umoreh is when most addictions start - because of peer pressure, or depression, as in my case.the vices of the world take away the pain, if only temporarily.by then we are addicted.from reading the stories here, some people didnt even know what they were doing.and when they found out, it was too late.happens a lot.so you're different.
jack

Like NewAction, in my case a large part of what started the addiction was rebellion. I believe the white book says that as well.

addiction due to rebellion?

i must say that in my 7 years here i have never heard that.you have opened my eyes.sounds to me like a whole different ballgame.

This is the post I was referring to:

"Wow! What a misunderstanding if there ever was one. As it says in Mishlay
אל תצא לריב מהר
Dov, I apologize to you. It shows you where I'm at.

I'm not deleting my post because let it be seen how wrong a person can be when he thinks he sees it so clearly and he thinks he is so right.

Wow, the human limitation, mine specifically."

cordnoy wrote:


My goodness, how gracious!

But if that's way we allocate credit then you Cords ofishelly deserve the credit for the posts on this thread and many others too.

So I suppose it's like Rashi says about Moshe and Aharon:
אומרים זה לזה למדני והדיבור יוצאת מבין שניהם
So in the case of these forums, I would say we all deserve the credit.

jack, I kinda like the way you think and the way you look at things.

jack, I kinda like the way you think and the way you look at things.

are you trying to give me a big head? gaava can be a person's downfall, among many other things (that can be someone's downfall).

jack wrote:


Remove G-d from the picture?

Did you read the actual post I suggested?

The point is that you are talking about 'religion', as if it is ever the answer to anything at all. But we know it isn't. The answer - whenever religion is the answer - is only in the application of its principles in the heart of the actual religious person. And that is not enough to work. The principle needs to be applied correctly for that situation or else it won't work.

The Nuclear Reset Button (and actually all the 12 step literature) is about honest application of religious principles. I have never found any Rav or yeshiva or sefer help an addict actually do that better than the other perverts and drunks in meetings can. Call it sad, whatever. But it is no reflection on yiddishkeit in any respect. For the application of these things is fraught with issues that normal Jews cannot help that addict with. In fact, any recovering goy can do a far better job at that, than the average frum Jew can.

The point of the Nuclear Reset Button post was precisely that the addict's own inner misuse of religion - yes, even though it is Torah, and correct Torah - is actually fueling his or her addiction and probably always has.

I do not find this sad. It"s to be expected. Torah is not for ill people. Help with learning honesty, and accepting the pain of growing up is for ill people. Expecting Torah to help w that is illogical and really just silly. For the entire application of Torah to help the dishonest and self-absorbed person is dependent on his use of it's ideas in a non-self-centered way in the first place!

Derech Eretz Kodma laTorah means this itself. Torah doesn't work for animals or crazy people. It just frustrates them over and over and makes them worse and worse.

So for the addict, his inner version of religion is actually part of how he got that sick in the first place. And reapplied, it will keep him sick.

So what do you propose? Remastering his religion so that it works right for him?

Great idea. But AA thought of that. Just read the 12 & 12 on steps 1-3 and it will be clear, I think.

But please read it, really, don't just peruse it. It's really good reading.

dov, i do NOT disagree with what you say here.but why do we beseech G-d in the 12 step meetings? isn't it because we know with a full heart that only with G-d's ideals for living will we get better? that we can't rely on our own thinking? as you always (correctly) say

HI Dov and everybody

Besides Ive also had this question, what you say about that I as an adict I am sick, I still insist that everyone is really sick like the Gemorah In sotah Ein Adam choiteh ela...."Ruach Shtus", And finnaly being honest is _(a high level-meaning not easy- in our days) being jewish.

OR NOT????????????