When it comes to incentives not to engage in this behavior which is certainly sinning, what does work? what's effective?

For starters I think we can all agree that the motivation must be at a time when a person is not in the heat of lust. Rather, the person's emotional state is in the calm between the storms if you will.
However, once a person is in the midst of a lustful storm, to stop from acting out is exceedingly difficult. During that time all conventional - classic mussar doesn't help in the vast majority of times. Like thinking where you came from etc.(not that this gives anyone any heter)

Between such strong lustful feelings one can be motivated to be loyal to a program or way of behavior that has proven to be effective. Of course each person must fine tune their respective plan of action accordingly. A person can be so motivated to find a proper course of action and steadfastly be loyal to that course. Most people today and what I believe appears to be generally on our forum, gravitate to positive motivation and shy away and in some cases even run away from any negativity. Fear and guilt being looked at as stifling to the person and counterproductive.

However, the Torah is filled with incentives and motivation of the positive and the negative. Be it on a national level or toward the individual. The Torah was written for all times and therefore even in our weak generation there is place for mentioning the negative as well. For instance, to know that shichvas zerah levatalahis misah biydei shamaim is important to know. That doing teshuva for this will require yisurim of some sort. Rabeinu Yonah in his classic work Sharrei Teshuva in shaar rivii Par 11 writes that it is helpful to give tzedakah and and do acts of chesed and of course to increase Torah study, this can help protect and be in place of ysurim, lo aleinu.
I remember years ago, I read in a book from Rabbi Dr. Twerski the difference between useful and non-useful guilt. How one is used as a springboard for self-improvement and the other to freeze and give up. All feelings could be employed in that way, fear for example.
Let's not become self-acclaimed wimps who cannot handle a little of the negative side. Let's understand that it is emes la'mito -that our destructive actions caused untold damage to ourselves and to others in countless ways and let that be utilized as a powerful incentive to become extra determined to follow the course that will help us be on track and stay that way.

Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:


My "chizuk" to you is that this sounded more like a musar vaad; which it is not bad at all and if this helps you go ahead with it. But this is nothing new that i did not know all my life and still was involved with what i was involved; it did not help me. By the way the person who i sponsor because his shmiras enayim is very weak if any at all. Is a Talmid Chacham that can quote all Chazal"s and rishonim ,acharonim on the subject. And that he himself gives shiurim on...shmiras enayim. But he's hooked in such a way that all this knowledge does not come to his help when a plain female bicycle rider passes by.
I need to know first that Hashem Almighty Loves me endlessly without regard whether i do mitzvos or sins. I have a malady of the spirit , soul and body.This malady has specific ways to deal with it. Now , for a lot of people the spiritual 12 step program is the only medicine. Maybe you are among this group of people maybe not. But if you are like i believe i am. Sinning and damage and pegamim and The suffering of the shechina and the length of the golus and the many tragic deaths , etc. Is not what i have to hear. It will not help me and it will not promote a change of personality (or psyche). I need to change my "persona".
All of this was meant for chizuk Hashivali not for the opposite. If it makes you feel uncomfortable for any reason just discard it. Keep On Trucking ! (זה העיקר)

cordnoy wrote:


I thought I answered that question but I am clarifying more in my response to Newaction's post below.

Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:


Well, I didn't see it, or perhaps i didn't understand it.
Perhaps i can make one suggestion as you prepare your response to NewAction.....your first attempt should be three to four sentences, no more. No need to listen to me though.

newaction wrote:
[/i][/i]

You quoted me with only the first part of my answer and you left out the continuation which is the ikar whcih is and the old me didn't have a friend with whom he discusses this and didn't have a kvius to be immersed in such thoughts, and when a questionable issue arose, didn't have with whom to clarify it, ma she'ain kain now. It's the lifeline for my metamorphosis.

No it isn't at all like a musar vaad. I must disclose every single thought that I had that day which was keneged haTorah. The discussion of the hefsed af avairos is merely the environment and the culture within which I wish to find my place, but the avoida here isn't 'LIMUD' of musar. It is living in a setting of wanting to better myself, and dealing with every issue that arises and not letting anything go undealt with. Obviously the discussion is about basic yesoidusdiker changes such as those you Newaction have posted recently in this and other threads, but I have been addressing and searching the way to remain committed to these ideals, and for that I have found this prescription from The Rebbe Reb Meilach of constant non ending dealing with shortcomings with the envolvement of another person and the accountability thereof.

cordnoy wrote:


Too late, I already responded, sorry.

I'm so glad that I found a simple program that has kept me clean from Z"L since October 19, 2014.

Searching for the solution in Torah didn't work for me for 40 years. I agree that the solution is in Torah, but I'm just probably just not smart enough to figure it out.

It's a good thing for me that in the 12 steps program, intelligence isn't necessarily an asset. The more intelligence I have, the more my ego is inflated, and the more my ego is inflated the more I run my life on self will. My life run on self will didn't work out, even when I truly believed I was following God's Will through the Torah. The truth is that, it was really running on my will all along. Unfortunately there really is no way to teach a spiritual awakening to someone. For me, I had to totally set aside all of my old ideas and grab onto the 12 steps program like a drowning person grabs onto a life preserver. Until I did that, I was just flailing around and grasping at straws.

Thanks for listening.

Yakov

B'H

Whatever works, all the power to you. It also is THE program for addiction that has worked wonders for countless others.
Let's remember something we all agree on. A lust addiction is only partly to do with lust. There are multiple underlying reasons why a specific individual has this compulsion and has been acting out.
I believe that these underlying reasons which vary from person to person - are the causes of why different approaches work for different people.
For serenity -total hisbatlus to 12 step is the yeshua. It is true chochma and the proof of the pudding is in its taste
A Hashiva with his own set of needs, is going to look for an approach that is found directly in classic sources by a legitimate Gadol Batorah.

Let's each take our own medicine, yet celebrate together.

Ok Hashiva sorry to have misunderstood you. One last thing though; what reb Elimelech writes could sound to me the same as the Vilna Gaon asked the Duvnow Magid to tell him musar or what the Tzfat Mekubalim of 500 years ago used to do in the fields. Which is the holiest of the holy. One day BE"H i will be zoche to that level. Today in order to keep my serenity i have to live with my resentments and fears lists which are explained in the AA big book. And do them routinely just to pass through life. My sex fantasies that fly through my head in an autonomous way i ask G.od to help me from them . And always ask G.od to save me from myself and my twisted ideas and beliefs and give me instead straight forward beliefs.
Wishing you Hatzlacha in your journey.

I think that Newaction's ideas are great but they will work ONLY if he has a commitment to either a group or sponsor or the like which will create constant immersion in the new way of life. Otherwise the aitzos are like a musar vaad. He has this and he does this, but he refuses to say that THAT is really the key to his recovery - the fact that he is LIVING in recovery. I'm sure Dov would agree that if someone reads the entire big book and understands the concepts but doesn't join some sort of group, just the knowledge won't do the trick. I am saying this berabim on the forum because I think it is of utmost importance to everyone.

The hope that I have that my new approach might work isn't only because I found it in a Torah source, but because it is done with accountability to another person and to the program. I think that this is a very important aspect of any program that works, including 12 steps.

Chevra please understand then point that I am making because I think it is crucial.

serenity wrote:


I don't think the problem is that Torah solutions didn't work for you, but because you missed some crucial aspects of those solutions, as I have been saying here with great fervor. Doing it with a change of lifestyle which includes

accountability,
long term commitment,
commitment to another person or a group of people.

Hashiva,
I've just caught up on about the lat month of posts on this thread. You are really trying to figure out something important and I really relate to what you're doing and also what you're aiming for.

shlomo613 wrote:


Thank you for understanding and appreciating. I have been searching this vehemently and have even been tremendously pained by it. You can find my searching comments recently in other threads here as well, and before that I was just speechless and not posting anything because I felt that I really don't have a grasp on things at all and have nothing of merit to say. I hope now that I am heading in the right direction.

I am sharing in order to give others what I have come to so far, and in order for others to build on this idea so that we can all build upon and grow from one another

^{B'SIYATA D'SHMAYA!!!}
_{ובריות גופא ונהורא מעליא}

As I said, I'm just a simple person and your probably right, I just missed finding the solution in Torah. Once again, that's why I'm glad there is a simple program available for plain folks like me.

I just want to point out, and this isn't coming from me but from someone a lot smarter, one of the reasons Torah doesn't work for people is because it is very hard or impossible for them to separate their ego from their avodah and learning. So, in addition to the requirements you listed above, you may need to add that. Personally I couldn't put my ego aside until I humbled myself enough to walk into a room filled with average people who were unknown to me and admitted who I really am.

Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:



My dear Hashiva if you found a way or THE way for your recovery , I would be more than glad really. Just to remind you that i am still struggling,especially in my relationships; and of course with that stupid attraction women have on my person. The attraction is always here in a relentlessly way. Sometimes it is easier,sometimes it feels like an electric powered magnet and sometimes i feel i am riding on a rodeo horse about to throw me off the saddle and i have to hold dearly on to it. My north is, looking at women is not a luxury i can have.Just like the first sip for the alcoholic.The first sip becomes a slip becomes a fall. I give looking at women the same gravity as a full fledged fall.This is me according to my books , and its a good advise to anyone involved in this struggle. Hatzlacha in your journey. Keep On Trucking.