Wow! I wish I can one day say these magical words myself:

I no longer "regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it."

I just wonder how many tears and tumbles it takes to get there...

sbj5775 wrote:

I second that hope!!

I hope I don't regret te future

thanks for the feed back . sorry if my post comes off as "tough Bklynese" I take it as a compliment since I am an out of town BT living in Bklyn who is a WannaBe yeshiva guy.

Dov wrote:


No, that is not true. But first, why did you slightly misquote me? why wasn't what I actually said sufficient to address. But in fact I didn't say she is disgusting or evil as I have no intention to judge her as it's totally not my issue, nor do I think she is evil. What I did say, in perfect clear honesty, is that she is repulsive but a woman none the less. My feeling about her is exactly that. The attraction is the regular lust toward women. The reason I find it important to point out that she is repulsive is that I understand with this that my attraction is simple animalistic lust and it is not rational at all. If she would really be a goddess then it would be a different type of nisoyon. It would be a nisoyon of abstaining from doing something which has a toeles but happens to be assur, like stealing money. But when we know that it is an irrational senseless lust then we know that it is like a sickness. So it is very important to point out that this woman is repulsive and yet I lust for her. And repulsive she is. The though of touching her makes me think of needing to wash my hands thoroughly afterwards. And the thought of anything more then that makes me feel nauseous and disgusting. The fact that there is lust doesn't by any means indicate otherwise. I lust for her and cringe in disgust at the same time. We all know that after being with our wife, when the lust is over, we're in no rush to flee the scene because it's actually an honor to be so closely and intimately acquainted with a Jewish princess. But after being with ......., when the lust is over, the guy wants to get out of there ASAP and is feeling utter disgust. This is true the first time at least, because maybe eventually a person can become desensitized, but when he is not yet desensitized this is the way he feels. So why should we have to say that we think she's a beautiful goddess? Some people are attracted to mishkav behema, nebach. Do they also have to say that it isn't repulsive? It is vulgarly repulsive while at the same time, the person has an uncontrollable urge to do this self destructive behavior.

Dov wrote:


Let me remind you what I said.

Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:


So you see that in fact I am talking about very practical methods, not at all magical as you say. The fact that I mentioned the chof Sivan thing is because it might add some incentive to be clean during the difficult travel experience and any hisorerus is good, as the folks say here 'whatever works' so why are you so against mentioning it?

By the way let me report here that my methods worked, besiyata dishmaya. I was more clean than I could have hoped for from when I left home until I returned. I had the Rabeinu Yona in my hand and in my mind.

I think the crux of our vikuach is whether one can be helped through sefarim like Shaarei Teshuva or if the only thing is attending meetings and following the 12 step program. You will not here me knock any approach that works for anyone. And if someone needs to attend meetings and neglects to do so then he is not taking the needed steps for his recovery. I feel that maybe if someone really follows the Shaarei Teshuva with as much care as some people follow the 12 steps, it might work, but when it comes to doing teshuva, everybody has nowadays bought in to the idea that just a bit of charata and merirus will do the trick, and people don't actually follow through much more than that. The Shaarei teshuva calls for constant and consistent work on the steps and levels that he discusses there. Who today is doing anything even near that, and then they have the 'broadness' to say that the Shaarei teshuva method doesn't work. We already find in Torah sources that lusting is compared to alcoholism. The Chinuch says so in mitzva 387. And he says there that it can be remedied. It's true that many people say that they haven't been helped through sifrei teshuva, but many have also reported that they haven't been helped by the 12 step program. I guess whatever approach you take, it all depends on how committed you really are to properly follow through.

Thank you for that long awaited response. Hatzlacha!

It is much clearer what you meant to say. To me, a lot of confusion laid in the fact that you were having a "business dealing" with her. It didn't quite sound like a drug deal or prostitution situation, so I understood that it was a somewhat respectable person you were dealing with.

Lust comes in all shapes, colors and sizes.

cordnoy wrote:


Absolutely.

Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:


im talkin' from experience.
and by the way, although I don't wanna get in bed with the "repulsive" discussion, none of them were repulsive to me....not before, durin' or after.

Now I'm confused. I thought it was a legitimate business dealing. Are we talking about prostitution or something like that?

serenity wrote:


She does some simple work for me. Perfectly legit.

Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:


then, i am somewhat confused as well.
Why does she bring out the "lowest of the low" thoughts in you?
What is the connection?

This is not my biggest issue. It is just something I mentioned in passing. I had a small business dealing with this woman who was supposed to do some menial work for me and I had some lust feelings even though logically she should be far from desirable, so I was pointing that out. Then Dov took issue with the way I referred to her and from there the conversation got a life of it's own.

Thanks for explaining and sharing.