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TOPIC: From tragedy to redemption 66063 Views

Re: From tragedy to redemption 02 Apr 2015 17:58 #251753

  • Hashivalisesonyishecho
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I know we have this vikuach. I think a large part of a person's personality is about what he knows he is. If a person could erase his memory and replace it with that of someone who behaves differently and therefore knows only that way of life to be his, it would make a big difference in the way he would behave. We actually see that the bad behaviors are cultivated over some time by acting that way, which means that it isn't totally genetic but it's certainly at least partly about his past experience - in other words what he knows about himself.

But you can still disagree and that's life.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 02 Apr 2015 19:17 #251758

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i am no expert on the brain, nor am i an expert on addiction, but what is bein' told to us is that us addicts (not necessarily genetically) have trained our brains to think and act a certain way. Now, if you erase the memory, what will happen. Ask Gevurah regardin' the difference between the delete button, a permanent delete, a defrag, or a sinkin' into the ocean deletion. there are differences. So, gettin' up in the mornin' sayin' real loud to whomever wants to listen: I will do this no more! I am sure of it! I dunno.

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Re: From tragedy to redemption 02 Apr 2015 20:46 #251769

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cordnoy wrote:
So, gettin' up in the mornin' sayin' real loud to whomever wants to listen: I will do this no more! I am sure of it! I dunno.

b'hatzlachah


I fully agree. But that's why I wrote so many reallys: If one is really(but really really) sure that he won't fall, then he wont. I'm not saying I know how to get to that point but if you do then you won the game, and certainly chizuk and good vibes from good friends could sometimes help.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 02 Apr 2015 22:01 #251773

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Why does The Rambam say ad sheyaid alav 'yodea taalumos'? Shouldn't he say 'yodea asidos'? The answer is because the fact that he won't do it again is deep within the depths of the person himself. But I grant you that it is very hidden - 'taalumos'. So the person might claim that he is really sure that he won't fall while he isn't really so sure. But to some this seems like not a practical question once it's so deeply hidden inside, but it's practical in the fact that through this we might have a hint of certain things that might help.

I'm saying this even though I respect all of those here even who disagree with me, but I'm saying what I think and what may help for some people such as maybe myself.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 03 Apr 2015 02:57 #251789

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Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
Why does The Rambam say ad sheyaid alav 'yodea taalumos'? Shouldn't he say 'yodea asidos'? The answer is because the fact that he won't do it again is deep within the depths of the person himself. But I grant you that it is very hidden - 'taalumos'. So the person might claim that he is really sure that he won't fall while he isn't really so sure. But to some this seems like not a practical question once it's so deeply hidden inside, but it's practical in the fact that through this we might have a hint of certain things that might help.

I'm saying this even though I respect all of those here even who disagree with me, but I'm saying what I think and what may help for some people such as maybe myself.


Reb meir bergman i think says that in shaarei orah, but if you look further, he says as follows (i think, and i know, this entire thing is against my nature): yodea taalumos knows that right now he is like that even though the yodea ha'asidus knows that he will sin again, for the teshuvah is accepted because in his depth that is what he feels. you are sayin that if it is in his depths, then he won't sin again.....i'm afraid that is just not the case....may it be so however, and truthfully, may it be so that someone has it in his depths...what happens afterwards is whatever happens.....

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Re: From tragedy to redemption 03 Apr 2015 04:06 #251796

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I think there really isn't a disagreement here. The disagreement is in the way people are interpreting what your saying.
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--"If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking (or lusting), you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic (or sexaholic)." AA Big Book P. 45. Parenthesis added.
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Re: From tragedy to redemption 03 Apr 2015 05:05 #251800

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Cords, that pshat from sharei orah is very sweet and a limud zechus but the pashuter pshat is still the emes.

Serenity, you may be right.

9494, the baal hatania asks that kasha. See what he says there in length, but he certainly says clearly that if a person has a negative self perception it will cause him to fall, and he quotes the mishna 'al tehi rasha bifnay atzmecha'.
Last Edit: 03 Apr 2015 06:20 by Hashivalisesonyishecho.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 06 Apr 2015 04:25 #251824

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Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
Cords, that pshat from sharei orah is very sweet and a limud zechus but the pashuter pshat is still the emes.


since i dont really know what youre sayin' in the rambam i can't argue, but it did sound like you were continuin' on your theme that if one is sure he won't sin then he wont...if you believe that is the pshat in the rambam and that is the pashut pshat, then i believe that is not the emes.
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Re: From tragedy to redemption 06 Apr 2015 06:26 #251829

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To me a belief that I won't fail based in complacency or a false sense that I'm recovered or cured is a recipe for sure failure. If I have confidence in my success that is well grounded in my actively, earnestly, ardently and honestly totally invested in and working a prescribed and successful program of recovery that's maybe a different story. There's a lot of perspective involved as well. For example the second I start thinking about how difficult it will be to last the summer, I already will very likely fail. On the other hand if I think hey I'll be fine all summer despite all the temptations, I also failed. But if I'm not even thinking about the summer and only thinking about now and my program and how I can grow spiritually (and working that program), I think it's fine to say I know I will be successful right now. No?
Much Hatzlacha!

My Threads:
Glad to be here
Don't slip it hurts
Lions & Tigers & Internet, Oh My!

--"ולא המדרש עיקר, אלא המעשה"
--"To promise not to do a thing is the surest way in the world to make a body want to go and do that very thing." Mark Twain
--"If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking (or lusting), you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic (or sexaholic)." AA Big Book P. 45. Parenthesis added.
--You hit rock bottom when you decide to stop digging.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 06 Apr 2015 15:21 #251833

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serenity wrote:
To me a belief that I won't fail based in complacency or a false sense that I'm recovered or cured is a recipe for sure failure. If I have confidence in my success that is well grounded in my actively, earnestly, ardently and honestly totally invested in and working a prescribed and successful program of recovery that's maybe a different story. There's a lot of perspective involved as well. For example the second I start thinking about how difficult it will be to last the summer, I already will very likely fail. On the other hand if I think hey I'll be fine all summer despite all the temptations, I also failed. But if I'm not even thinking about the summer and only thinking about now and my program and how I can grow spiritually (and working that program), I think it's fine to say I know I will be successful right now. No?


I completely agree with this mehalech. I don't know the answer to your your last question because it's very hard to know the taalumos laiv nor can another person know this for you, but the search for knowing this is a search in the right direction.
Last Edit: 06 Apr 2015 15:22 by Hashivalisesonyishecho.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 06 Apr 2015 15:27 #251834

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cordnoy wrote:

since i dont really know what youre sayin' in the rambam i can't argue, but it did sound like you were continuin' on your theme that if one is sure he won't sin then he wont...if you believe that is the pshat in the rambam and that is the pashut pshat, then i believe that is not the emes.


I think you are too quick to dismiss what I am saying. Especially in light of the fact that some here feel that what I am saying isn't being understood.
serenity wrote:
I think there really isn't a disagreement here. The disagreement is in the way people are interpreting what your saying.


I think what I'm saying could have some benefit if you would consider it.

But again after all we can still disagree and that's life.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 06 Apr 2015 23:04 #251861

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If you're asking me if I know that this mehalech has helped specifically with addicts the answer is no I don't know. But that this mehalech works in general I certainly do know that it does and actually it is the basis of all successful chinuch, including for kids who have acted out and fallen in certain ways. The best thing we can do for our children in terms of chinuch is to give them(help them develop) a good self esteem. This doesn't mean a non realistic good self esteem because lies don't work, but to realistically help them see themselves in a good light certainly is tried and and proven to improve behavior.

And if you say 'well aha you admit that you don't know that it works with addicts' my answer is yes that's true but besides being addicts we are still human beings and we aren't martians. Things that work for people in general will have at least some affect on addicts too even if it isn't the entire picture.
Last Edit: 06 Apr 2015 23:06 by Hashivalisesonyishecho.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 07 Apr 2015 00:54 #251872

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9494 wrote:
Hashiva, from my understanding, by throwing in self esteem, you are now bringing up a totally different concept from what we were discussing before.

According to psychology.about.com/od/sindex/f/what-is-self-esteem.htm

In psychology, the term self-esteem is used to describe a person's overall sense of self-worth or personal value. Self-esteem is often seen as a personality trait, which means that it tends to be stable and enduring. Self-esteem can involve a variety of beliefs about the self, such as the appraisal of one's own appearance, beliefs, emotions, and behaviors.



If self esteem is as described above, it is obviously very far away from belief in ourselves that we will not fail.
Not at all. Certain failures as viewed by a person with a healthy self esteem are simply beneath his dignity. His self esteem will prevent him from lowering himself to that level
And now you are mixing self esteem with this other sort of belief-in-self-I-will-not-fail. I would imagine that telling a kid to be believe in themselves that they will not fail, is a setup for disaster.
That's true and that's not what's being suggested as you can see from some parts of the discussion here. A person doesn't come to 'know' that he won't fall by uttering the words 'I won't fall'. He comes to know it by knowing himself in a more positive light. This is very connected with self esteem. I didn't elaborate enough because it is a rather lengthy discussion but I clearly said that I'm not saying exactly how to get there but getting to that point brings success and it's a worthwhile pursuit and I'm saying that we should work in that direction. When they do fail - probably aint pretty. But, I dont have kids, so could be wrong.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 07 Apr 2015 14:31 #251891

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Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
serenity wrote:
I never doubted you'd make it, even for a second!



I believe that that is the key to success. If one is really(but really really) sure that he won't fall, then he wont. And if his friends make him feel that way then they have a zchus in his success, so that's the case here for sure.

That brings me to the next discussion on an upcoming post when I will have the time to post it iy'h.


The reason I am quoting myself and not just saying it since it's from me anyway, is because we all know that if we say beshem omro it brings redemption, which is of course the newly acquired theme of this thread.
(Just some tongue in cheek humor.)

I still plan to come to the next discussion when I'll get a chance now that we have somewhat cleared the first statement at least by some (if not by all). I'm still bothered that Zaidy Cords doesn't seem to be on the same page because I have much respect for him.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 07 Apr 2015 21:57 #251912

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Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
cordnoy wrote:

since i dont really know what youre sayin' in the rambam i can't argue, but it did sound like you were continuin' on your theme that if one is sure he won't sin then he wont...if you believe that is the pshat in the rambam and that is the pashut pshat, then i believe that is not the emes.


I think you are too quick to dismiss what I am saying. Especially in light of the fact that some here feel that what I am saying isn't being understood.
serenity wrote:
I think there really isn't a disagreement here. The disagreement is in the way people are interpreting what your saying.


I think what I'm saying could have some benefit if you would consider it.

But again after all we can still disagree and that's life.


although I post often, I try not to be quick....with this post, I was not quick at all....not even to a non-addict. Don't get me wrong...a person should try to reach the level that he 'knows' he won't sin, but I just don't think it is the knowin' that makes it that he won't sin again.
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