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From tragedy to redemption
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TOPIC: From tragedy to redemption 50652 Views

Re: From tragedy to redemption 07 Apr 2015 22:01 #251915

  • cordnoy
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Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
If you're asking me if I know that this mehalech has helped specifically with addicts the answer is no I don't know. But that this mehalech works in general I certainly do know that it does and actually it is the basis of all successful chinuch, including for kids who have acted out and fallen in certain ways. The best thing we can do for our children in terms of chinuch is to give them(help them develop) a good self esteem. This doesn't mean a non realistic good self esteem because lies don't work, but to realistically help them see themselves in a good light certainly is tried and and proven to improve behavior.

And if you say 'well aha you admit that you don't know that it works with addicts' my answer is yes that's true but besides being addicts we are still human beings and we aren't martians. Things that work for people in general will have at least some affect on addicts too even if it isn't the entire picture.


Since when was the discussion about self esteem?
See, here is where I am gettin' confused.
It seems you wanted to stress that your mehalech is correct, and in this paragraph, what i thought you were sayin', I don't see at all. The main chiddush I thought you were sayin' is that one should get to a point where he 'knows' he won't sin...is that the only way you can give children chinuch?

I am confused...sorry.
my fault though
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
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GYE Handbook | Gibbor's Insights | GYE FAQ - Thanks Skep and DMS123456789 White Book | Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous)

If one gives up at the first sign of a struggle, he is really not ready to be successful."
"Tryin' and doin' are two different thin's - tryin' is hopin'; doin' is succeedin'.
"The right thin' to do and the hard thin' to do are usually the same."


Disclaimer: I am not a cheerleader; B"H, there are many on the site. I am here to change myself, and with God's help, by some mistake, I might even help change others.

MY POSTS ARE NOT WRITTEN AS A MODERATOR UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED.
Last Edit: 07 Apr 2015 22:02 by cordnoy.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 07 Apr 2015 22:05 #251917

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9494 wrote:
Hashiva, from my understanding, by throwing in self esteem, you are now bringing up a totally different concept from what we were discussing before.

According to psychology.about.com/od/sindex/f/what-is-self-esteem.htm

In psychology, the term self-esteem is used to describe a person's overall sense of self-worth or personal value. Self-esteem is often seen as a personality trait, which means that it tends to be stable and enduring. Self-esteem can involve a variety of beliefs about the self, such as the appraisal of one's own appearance, beliefs, emotions, and behaviors.



If self esteem is as described above, it is obviously very far away from belief in ourselves that we will not fail. And now you are mixing self esteem with this other sort of belief-in-self-I-will-not-fail. I would imagine that telling a kid to be believe in themselves that they will not fail, is a setup for disaster. When they do fail - probably aint pretty. But, I dont have kids, so could be wrong.


I see I wasn't the only one to notice the switch.
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads:
GYE Handbook | Gibbor's Insights | GYE FAQ - Thanks Skep and DMS123456789 White Book | Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous)

If one gives up at the first sign of a struggle, he is really not ready to be successful."
"Tryin' and doin' are two different thin's - tryin' is hopin'; doin' is succeedin'.
"The right thin' to do and the hard thin' to do are usually the same."


Disclaimer: I am not a cheerleader; B"H, there are many on the site. I am here to change myself, and with God's help, by some mistake, I might even help change others.

MY POSTS ARE NOT WRITTEN AS A MODERATOR UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 07 Apr 2015 22:15 #251920

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Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
serenity wrote:
I never doubted you'd make it, even for a second!



I believe that that is the key to success. If one is really(but really really) sure that he won't fall, then he wont. And if his friends make him feel that way then they have a zchus in his success, so that's the case here for sure.

That brings me to the next discussion on an upcoming post when I will have the time to post it iy'h.


The reason I am quoting myself and not just saying it since it's from me anyway, is because we all know that if we say beshem omro it brings redemption, which is of course the newly acquired theme of this thread.
(Just some tongue in cheek humor.)

I still plan to come to the next discussion when I'll get a chance now that we have somewhat cleared the first statement at least by some (if not by all). I'm still bothered that Zaidy Cords doesn't seem to be on the same page because I have much respect for him.


i am flattered, but completely undeservin'.

I do believe that if one thinks he will fall, he probably will...at some point.
I do believe that if one thinks or knows he won't fall, that is a good thing.
I do not believe that if one knows he won't fall, he won't.

Am i bein' clear?
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads:
GYE Handbook | Gibbor's Insights | GYE FAQ - Thanks Skep and DMS123456789 White Book | Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous)

If one gives up at the first sign of a struggle, he is really not ready to be successful."
"Tryin' and doin' are two different thin's - tryin' is hopin'; doin' is succeedin'.
"The right thin' to do and the hard thin' to do are usually the same."


Disclaimer: I am not a cheerleader; B"H, there are many on the site. I am here to change myself, and with God's help, by some mistake, I might even help change others.

MY POSTS ARE NOT WRITTEN AS A MODERATOR UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 08 Apr 2015 04:50 #251950

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cordnoy wrote:



Since when was the discussion about self esteem?
See, here is where I am gettin' confused.
It seems you wanted to stress that your mehalech is correct, and in this paragraph, what i thought you were sayin', I don't see at all. The main chiddush I thought you were sayin' is that one should get to a point where he 'knows' he won't sin...is that the only way you can give children chinuch?

I am confused...sorry.
my fault though


I thought I was very clear that knowing that you won't fall is not to be understood in a simplistic way and it certainly doesn't mean saying it to yourself or anything like that. That's why I said all those reallys: If one is really(but really really) sure that he won't fall, then he wont. Knowing you won't fall has a lot to do with the way you view yourself and the way you view such a fall. It could become a thing that is simply not feasible and therefore highly unlikely. This is through a good positive self esteem combined with an understanding of the level of lowliness of certain activities, to the point that it becomes a level that in person's honest self he just knows that such an act is out of the question.

Also you should know that I am not arguing against the concept of powerlessness. Everyone is powerless about certain things and about others things less so. Everyone has things that are for him not a nisoyon because it is not in his mind viewed at all as an option, such as murder(for most of us). So with such a thing we feel more in power than with things that we experience a true nisoyon. Everyone has certain areas where they have a real struggle to do the right thing, each person with those things that for him present themselves as nisyonos. This is what Rav Dessler z'l refers to as the nekudas habchira. And then there are some areas where it is even worse than that, that we are almost compelled to do the wrong thing. Everyone has such a spectrum but differenbt things nare at different pint of the spectrum for different people. But that changes in the person as his personality evolves through his life experiences, and so the point of evident powerlessness changes. Just because he is evidently powerless today in a particular area, does not mean that that will forever be his area of struggle. While the baalei mussar say that changing is very hard, they do advise of ways to change, and those ways bring a person to change their nekudas habchira.

I know that for most people this is too much thought and not simple enough to understand but I only brought it to this level when people refused to consider the simple version, thinking that I changed my path while I was saying the same thing all along, only bekitzur by using many reallys to indicate that I wasn't talking about min hasafa ulechutz.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 08 Apr 2015 04:52 #251951

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cordnoy wrote:



I do believe that if one thinks he will fall, he probably will...at some point.
I do believe that if one thinks or knows he won't fall, that is a good thing.
I do not believe that if one knows he won't fall, he won't.

Am i bein' clear?


Then I suppose we are close enough and we can move on to the next step.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 15 Apr 2015 16:03 #252336

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I know I'm supposed to be comtinuing a discussion but I have not had and still do not have the yishuv hadaas.

In the meantime I am reporting that I have been lusting a lot lately and slipping several times. Reporting it makes me feel like I'm getting a handle on it and hopefully the lusting and slipping will diminish. The lusting is an escape from reality. I am being dealt a large very sharp and bitter portion of maror. I know it is a nisoyon, and the very knowledge that I slipped and was not omed benisoyon is in itself a big nisoyon. I believe that Hashem has good things in store for me and my family and I believe that the nisoyon is a gift from him to make me worthy for more good. (This is what I believe even if other people don't see it that way) The fact that I slipped is very regretful but I hope that by talking about it and thinking about it with this hashkafa I will have siyata dishmaya not to slip more. And I hope that hashem will forgive me.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 15 Apr 2015 16:38 #252338

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Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
I believe that Hashem has good things in store for me and my family and I believe that the nisoyon is a gift from him to make me worthy for more good.
We don't know why Hashem gives "good" to some people. Just do your part to the best of your ability, and let G-d worry about His cheshbonos.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 16 Apr 2015 03:57 #252394

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I slipped some more. This time it is a borderline slip/fall. I see from this that difficulties aren't good for us. Hashem put us in galus to cleanse us but in the depths of galus we sink low. I need Moshiach.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 16 Apr 2015 04:49 #252395

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I didn't see your last post but I felt concerned for you. Can you explain that? I never felt worried about you before and had no reason to now. Please explain this to me.

What comes to mind to say to you is that if you can do 105 days, then you can do one day! If you're thinking about the future, just forget about it! It's irrelevant and doesn't even exist until God creates it. Whatever you are dealing with a slip or fall will not help it. You will be upset and stressed not only about whatever is going on, you will have even more upset and stress over a fall. You will also have a harder time dealing with the underlying issue. If you get through this, you will be so happy and strong after!!! You can do it!!! I need you to get through this!

Call someone and sit on the phone with them until this passes. Message me in groups or to my email and I'll give you my number, if you want it.

(((((Hashiva)))) ((((( )))) = cyber hugs
Much Hatzlacha!

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--"To promise not to do a thing is the surest way in the world to make a body want to go and do that very thing." Mark Twain
--"If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking (or lusting), you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic (or sexaholic)." AA Big Book P. 45. Parenthesis added.
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Re: From tragedy to redemption 16 Apr 2015 08:56 #252409

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Hi Hashiva,
I'm sorry to hear about your slips..

I slipped too so I understand you very much right now. I think (at least for me) that summer is a part of it, seeing undressed people everywhere is not easy and we have to be much more aware than ever..

Also this feeling of being absorb little by little in lust is very scary..

Don't really know what to tell you except that we stand with you. Waiting for good news
Last Edit: 16 Apr 2015 08:57 by Palti-Yossef.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 16 Apr 2015 11:06 #252416

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Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
I slipped some more. This time it is a borderline slip/fall. I see from this that difficulties aren't good for us. Hashem put us in galus to cleanse us but in the depths of galus we sink low. I need Moshiach.



Oh come on Hashiva , Moshiach ? ? ? And if a simple talmid like me asks "are you going to wait for Mosiach , what are you going to do till then ? ? ?

Hashivali please right this moment close your eyes elevate your heart to Shamayim and say this:Hashemmmmmmmmm !!!! pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee !!! HELPPPPPPPP MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE !!!!
Take away my lust my taaivos . I dont want them !!!!!! take them away !!!!!!!

Re: From tragedy to redemption 16 Apr 2015 11:13 #252417

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O G.OD , DIRECT MY THINKING, SO THAT IT MAY BE DIVORCED FROM SELF-PITY AND FROM DISHONEST AND SELF-SEEKING MOTIVES. LET ME MAKE EVERY DECISION AND BEGIN EVERY ACTION IN YOU AND CONTINUE IT ONLY THROUGH YOUR INSPIRATION. THROUGHOUT THIS DAY SHOW ME THE NEXT STEP TO TAKE AND TO TRUST IN YOUR CARE OF ME AND MY PROBLEMS. FREE ME FROM ALL SELF-WILL AND SELF-SUFFICIENCY AND HELP ME TO NEITHER SEEK NOR PRAY FOR SELFISH ENDS.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 16 Apr 2015 21:19 #252460

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You know you have what it takes to stay sober, your number of days alone prove that.
The advice you've just been given is good solid sound advise but no chidushim for Hashiva.
You yourself are hinting that your difficult situation is hammering away at your defenses.

As was mentioned already turn your focus to shamaim and daven. However, may I suggest that right now you need a little curve ball to up your emotional ante.
How about closing your eyes and singing your favorite inspiring niggun out loud for a few minutes. a little swaying(or tears) wouldn't hurt

MUSIC WILL GIVE YOU THAT KICK START YOU DESPERATELY NEED!

Re: From tragedy to redemption 16 Apr 2015 22:42 #252470

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Thank you wonderful chaverim. Serenity that's amazing that you had such a feeling. This last slip/fall was not even with any lust. I was just typing in bad names in skype search as though just out of curiosity and then when some skype members popped up some having bad pictures in that tiny circle, I didn't even look and I immediately deleted everything. So it's a fall because I deliberately searched for erotica but not a fall because I didn't look at the shmutz when it arrived. I had no pleasure in this. It was just a self destructive act for no gain at all. I will say that I had been lusting earlier in that day and my eyes and thoughts were wandering where they shouldn't. Maybe the weather didn't help either as Palti Yosef suggested. It seems that that put me in a bad frame of mind and I didn't feel worthy of not falling so I went ahead to do what I did without even being interested. This followed a very hard day in other aspects. You're probably right yiraishamaim that the song would help, or even just a good shmona esray or something like that to let me taste my soul whose light feels like it's smothered and needs rekindling. As it says in Mesilas Yisharim about Parohs tichbad ha'avoda tactic to break our spirits and make us forget about our kedusha. I had been planning to learn this week and I had an entire schedule planned but I was thrust into dealing with tzaros instead. You are certainly correct newaction that self pity is destructive and I should be mekabel Hashem's will be'ahava. I am a tiny man and that calling is so great. Hashem can help me do it. I need to turn to him. demishtakchin betzaara dilhon ve'oskin bechedvasa dili. I love those traits an those people who do that. I pray that Hashem accept my love for those middos as if I myself had them.

Sorry for the ramble.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 17 Apr 2015 05:40 #252485

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Baruch Hashem that no falls were reported by you.I got real worried.
About the tzaros that you keep on writing; we are really sorry for whatever it is that you are dealing with and i definitely and with all my heart empathize with you and your family.My youngest son since the first day he was born was very sick; he was in a really bad situation ; besides treatments , operations and transplants that i never new existed . In those days all was dark for me and my wife ; for months she had to be at the hospital day and night , he was a baby that needed to nurse or have mothers milk . In short our lives were changed like america . There is an America before 9/11 and there is another america after 9/11. Our lives were one way before he was born and were different totally afterwards.
I am saying all this that looking backwards we realized that there was always "Chesed" in every "Din". Things were bad and dark but always there was a little light at the end or at the beginning of the tunnel.
What i would like to say is this , do not take the "tzara" or "tzaros" personally and sentimentally.Dont say "Oy Vey , what now ?" " Oy why me ? Hashem is paying me all the bad ". That is all nonsense . Always do what you have to do and thats all. Without interpretations or philosophical debates. Stand firm with your two legs apart ready to deal with anything life throws at you and having total trust that you will overcome it. And,trust me , overcome it you will. הצלחה ברוחניות ובגשמיות.
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