serenity wrote:

I'm just going to throw this out there, although it might very well be what you meant.

I know from experience that one of my big challenges is when I am doing well and I start having lustful thoughts. I get all uptight and upset about it, and I end up getting dragged into it, fighting it, and usually losing to it.

Not having certain thoughts is an expectation like all others, and it is something that I have learned that I can accept as Hashem's will just like I accept losing a camera as Hashem's will.

It is already brought down in chassidishe seforim (and maybe litvishe as well, but I wouldn't know) that not having thought is not in our hands, our job is to not indulge in those thoughts, rather to surrender them to Hashem.

Pidaini wrote:


the way i understand it at this moment is that we are to surrender our lives to Hashem....not really sure what use He would have for the thoughts goin' thru my mind nowadays.

Yankel, thanks for sharing. Yes, agree, not to indulge those thoughts. I was also talking about something different though. I was talking about not glancing women in the street with the intent of objectifying them or even just out of curiosity. Curiosity is usually one step away from lust.

Hear hear!
Btw, Do you think we only are curious because of lust?
Do we glance at men in the street out of curiosity?

One of the things that I struggle with is that in order to stay clear of triggers, I cannot look around at all. Now, of course, one of the most common things that I look at is........ but I am the observant type and enjoy seeing everything around me.

Yes, I glance at men out of curiosity. I'm not sure what came first the curiosity or the lust, but I do glance around a lot at kinds of stuff out of curiosity. Maybe I'm just curious to see if there is a beautiful woman there. Either way, it's not good for me.

We've got to get used to keeping our eyes within our own 4 amos.
I'm often very tempted to look. But I know where it leads. And I know why I want to look. It's the yetzer hara trying to get his foot in the door. Long and bitter experience.
I had a hachnosas Sefer Torah to go to recently. And I didn't go to the street part because I knew women will be milling around. The loss is more than the gain.
(Forgive me for sharing something I'm proud of).

Well done serenity for your successes to date. Keep up the good work.
Shlomo

You're in a good position on the chart serenity. How's it actually going for you?

It's going well. When I keep my focus in the moment it's a lot easier for me. I'm also trying to appreciate every day. I definitely have my struggles.

I'm at the point where I'm forgetting the pain that my addiction caused me. In the past the pain was what kept me sober for short periods of time. Pain can be a sobering experience. Many people talk about reaching bottom and saying they can't get sober because they haven't reached bottom. What about the person who has by any objective standard reached bottom and lets say he even gets sober. Is there anything assuring that the bottom and pain he reached, will keep him sober? Experience would say absolutely not. Just one example in my AA circles is a friend who 14 months ago was on a respirator in ICU due to an alcohol and drug overdose. He was once a wealthy successful professional with a wife and kids. He lost everything and lives in a half-way house. Yet he recently relapsed, after 14 months of sobriety and ended up in the hospital for 3 weeks. I have another friend in our program (SA GYE etc) who despite losing his family and job, can't stay sober. He says he hasn't hit bottom. When he was experiencing the pain of losing his family, he wasn't acting out, but that only lasts so long. Hitting bottom, pain, suffering, self-loathing and disgust aren't enough to keep people like me sober. Eventually I will forget the pain, or the despair will get the better of me, and I'll act out. One of the things I need to do is indeed recall the pain I went through and put my family through. I also need to be grateful for how much better my life is now. Even more so, and regardless of how much better my life is or even if it isn't better, I made a decision that I don't want to lead a selfish, dishonest, self-seeking and fearful life filled with regret, jealously and hatred anymore. Sometimes I need to remind myself of that decision, so that's what I'm doing. Thanks for listening.

I got a tremendous חיזוק from your words.
If someone can lose everything and still not truly hit bottom, then one can also hit bottom without losing everything. We say "hit bottom while still on top," but it's good to understand it a little better.

Yup Serenity. I 100% relate to what you're saying.
I generally relapse when I hit a crest, i.e. when I'm really comfortable and confident in my sobriety. I think, "now I can treat myself and indulge".
I'm not sure what the solution is. PLEASE COULD SOMEBODY GIVE US ONE?

We takeh hit bottom so we stopped but we need to address what void the behaviors were filling, and fill them in good ways. If there would be UA meetings, I think I would attend.

Underachievers Anonymous.

Hi Serenity, "bottom" is truly a subjective thing. What is the bottom for one guy, is not the bottom for another. For me, whenever I took my failings to a "new level" rachmona letzlan, that created a moment of opportunity. If I was able to somehow recover from that point, then looking back, I recognized that I hit "bottom" and that was a place where I never want to ever go again. But unless you recognize that you've "crossed a line" you've never crossed before, you're still falling and haven't hit "bottom" yet.