My own modest observations on clean living and the path to recovery...

Things aren't linear. Nature isn't linear, naturally-occurring mathematical patterns aren't linear, and growth, all growth, isn't linear. The only thing that HaShem has made linear in this world, it seems, is human expectation: the way we want things to occur, our vision of how the world is supposed to function. But this expectation of linearity is both a fantasy and a fallacy, and the sooner we realize that, the sooner we accept reality.

Perhaps there is a great linear path to existence, but our infinitesimally small station in the universe does not afford us such a vantage point. My frustrations as a perfectionist center on this disparity all the time. I want to get from point A, living in the shmutz, to point B, clean living, in those easy-to-calculate positive slopes we learned about in middle school algebra... I want a y=x path to recovery. But, alas, we need some high school pre-calculus, or in my situation, some calculus II, to calculate the equations of the trajectories of our recovery. Nasty looking curves, with ups, downs, sine functions and a few zig-zags for good measure.

I don't know about you, but I'd be happy with just partial credit for that math exam question.

I would like to call a 60 second time out in the action to share something. (It is my thread after all so here it belongs) and then I will get back to the discussion at hand (which has been very beneficial for me.)
Yesterday I was sitting around and somehow something triggered a lustful thought to cross through my mind (well more like enter and stick around - halevay it would just cross through) As I was trying to deal with it, I thought to myself "hey lets try the surrender the thought to Hashem thing"
I am not sure I got the mehalech right but I did think, "Hashem, I don't want to thing about that. Take it away" and sure enoug hit went. Thought came back several times through the evening and each time I did the same thing. and you know what? It was a very exhilarating feeling. and it works.
a thought though, (again assuming this is what every one is talking about) there is still an element of self control involved. You have to tell yourself to stop thinking about the lust and ask Hashem to help. that being said I DID see that it was an easier process than trying to find something else to think about. so it must be that Hashem really helps in that situation and not just a psychological thing. Perhaps indeed that is all Hashem wants, for us to get closer to him. Once we do, mission accomplished.
Either way, it was quite a revelation.
Now back to the discussion.....

Hey Unanumun,

That's great! To be honest, I've always wanted to do that, but for whatever reason (call it the Yetzer HaRa, or addictive confirmation bias, or whatever), I never let myself. There's a definite battle in my mind. Intellectually, I know calling out to HaShem is the way to go, and the option is there -- floating around in my head. But HaSatan just keeps it out of reach. It's not an excuse, and believe me, I do make those; it's a constant frustration. I've spoken to HaShem openly about other things, often, but I just can't do that in the throws of lust. I really would love to be able to do that!

TalmidChaim wrote:


I know a good idea on how to do it

There is no "proper" thing to say, no proper way to say it, there is but one thing



But I do understand that sometimes I JDDI.````

sir Pidaini,
I didn't understand what you wrote or signed. please explain
a gutten shabbos to all
oh and by the way I just noticed that is has been a week since i was with my wife. i had one or two disappointing nights but it didn't really bother me for more than 5 seconds. what a difference hanging out here had made on my life.
so all you out there, KOT!!! and KOP!!!

and i also just updated my chart. I hit 60 days. wow!!! time flies when you're having fun, (or living life).

Great work, Unanumun... You, and all the guys here, are my inspiration!

bear with me - long post ahead:::::
I got what pideini meant about underlying issues coming back up after a while (I think I got what he meant at least)
I had an interesting experience since motzaei Shabbos until this morning.
I got into this depressed feeling that I get every so often. (It's a complicated issue, although I don't think I need medicine or a psychologist, and my assures me that is a normal thing consider what is going on in my life) they come and go every so often.
So i got into thinking that this is the exact feeling that I need an escape from. Well since porn is off limits now, and even stam sitting and watching youtube videos, has been stopped as they were a sure trigger to bad news, I was stuck. I didn't know what to do with myself. I was miserable.
I realized that that for the last few years (probably about seven or so) I was using the computer for an escape.I went through several stages of escape:
computer games: eventually I was able to pull myself away because it became too much of a waste of time
reading the news, all of them: eventually I had stopped because it occupied my whole mind and very often the goyishe news sites ended up triggering lust attacks.
porn: stopped about 60 days ago
All that was left was kosher (in terms of shmiras eynayim) news sites and yeshivishe politcs blogs. well last week I started learning shmiras halashon (that really deserves a seperate post, I forgot that I wanted to post it). I came to the realization that I had a real problem with the news sites since the most interesting things to me are the loshon hara and rechilos of politics. so I decided that I will stop that. I quit cold turkey last week for a while and even when i relapsed I did so with a guilty concience.
SO.....that leaves me really messed up. There are times when I need an escape and now I don't know what to do with myself. I was going nuts. I previously would have just gone to my office to escape into the world of the computer screen and now I had no reason to go to the office and couldn't think of anything to do to escape.
My mind went through crazy thoughts. (I even had a split minute where I was able to understand how people in an extended period of depression could be brought to suicide, rachmana litzlan) and of course i went through the whole porn issue in my mind again. maybe once in a while won't be such a crazy thing. It would keep me sane. I would go get my fix and then - back to life. so I reminded myself of what brought me to GYE and why I decided to stop. that calmed me down.
Then sunday night I traveled to a different city for a wedding. on the way my mind was all screwed up and i started lusting. I was looking around for those pritzos i always see and indeed i couldn't find any. I thought that I should stop this maybe do the give over the thoughts to Hashem thing. but i didn't want to. i wasn't in the mood to stop.
I ended up davening maariv and at the end of shemone esray i davened for hashem to help me get through this and stop lusting. sure enough after maariv i felt better for a while. eventually i made it to the chasuna and sure enough even though it was a pretty frum wedding, part of the mechitza was moved and you could see all the girls dancing. (of all times for that to happen) i moved to a different spot. (probably because i was afraid someone would see me looking)
well baruch hashem, He sent me a yeshua. some guy asked me for a ride home and he kept me busy in conversation and by the time i got home i was so exhausted i fell right to sleep.
In the morning i finally put myself back together and today was fine.
there i got it all off my chest and if anybody else can benefit at the same time all the merrier.
so the bottom line is, what the heck am i going to do to escape when the need comes up? i gotta find something real soon.
it is also harder because just going to my quiet office was a way to get away but now that is not an option - too risky for me, and also there is nothing to do there.
maybe books but i can never keep enough books in the house without reading them and then they are not interersting once i need them to escape. well the hunt goes on and i better find something soon. or else.......

WWWWWWWWWWWWWoooooooooooooooooooooooooWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HEH!! I was just there this past Shabbos!! Other's have written here about that feeling as well, and it is written about in the whitebook too. When we stop using our "fix" we get (at some point or other) this massive wave of emotion, whatever it may be, and we have NO CLUE on how to deal with it!! We're not used to dealing with emotions, we're used to drowning them, numbing them through lust, and when we don't, it feels like a wall coming down on top of us!!!

I can't say I have any solid advice, but being in touch with people and being able to speak about how I feel, to people who actually understand, is for certain a massive help!

KUTGW mr. nameless!!!!!! KOMT!!!

Likewise, having stopped looking at porn and the like, the wave of emotion can be easily drowned in (pun intended). Pidaini is right that this may come from our lack of the "fix" which used to help us through. Now that we aren't using the chemicals we would release in our bodies, we must find other ways to channel that emotion. Again, Pidaini hit it right with his mentioning to connect with friends. This is something real and tangible. Sometimes toward the need of shabbos, I get this rush of feeling sad and depressed. It's so weird, and sudden. At those times, I look at my friends and try to remind my self that I'm surrounded by people who genuinely care for me. It's that feeling of warmth, and safety that picks me up.

shomer, I also used to get this tremendous feeling of depression when i was walking to shul for maariv on motzaei shabbos. it was when i was going through a difficult time in my life. Shabbos was a great break from my life and as i went to maariv the weight of everything that i was going through came back like a ton of bricks.
there was a while that i made it my business to extend shabbos so to speak. right after havdala i went to learn and stayed there for a few hours and came home for melave malka, it was a big help.

and thank you and pidaini for your responses. (especially the long word) you have made me realize indeed that looking for a new escape is not the mehalech. It is now time (finally) to learn how to deal with the emotions straight on and change the way I am feeling. I will try to put thought into what is causing it and what steps I have to do to change my mindframe instead of escaping until it passes. I assume it can be done.
I don't thing shmoozing it out with others will help me. I would never be able to get out everything that is working through my mind. it is too complex and too much involved. Also despite being in the center of attention very often, I am really an internal guy and I look at being around people whether it is at work or in shul or stam on line in the makolet, as as avoda of mine. I try to make people happy as much as I can. (It all started at a sheva brachos of mine when someone pointed out something positive about me that I hadn't noticed - but that is a seperate shmooze) I much prefer to sit on the side in quiet and not be noticed. (although when I find a new location to do so where no one knows me it doesn't stay that way too long- so maybe i am not really being completely honest with myself)
Anyways, just being able to work things out myself and come back here in this anonymous place and post my thoughts should do the trick.
it is amazing to start a post and look back at the end of it and see how much I got off my chest and how good it felt.

HAVE A GOOD YOM TOV EVERYONE!!!!!!

unanumun wrote:

Thanks for a couple of great posts and some great realizations.

Who said you have to discuss everything that is in your head? You can call someone and just shmooze. You can be there for someone else, or just enjoy the conversation. You can share "some" of what is in your head. You seem to have a lot to say.

Just getting out of our own heads can be helpful. If for nothing else to change the channel that is running in our minds.

I have to run.

Hatzlacha! You are on the right track! Keep sharing!

Have a wonderful yom tov!

that's true gibbor, just speaking to people is a good way to change the channel. the issue that i am discussing is to come to grips with that which is causing the need to escape. in those terms to just shmooz with people would also be an escape of sorts. I meant that to shmooz with people to help deal with what is going on in my head would be tough.
But I keep seeing that being able to come here and post is great for me. I find myself trying to formulate my thought into a way that i will be able to post them when i get back to my computer. so in a way I AM talking things out, just in anonymous way with anonymous friends. but hey it helps so we will KOP in a big way for now.

so I have been doing a lot of thinking about what is causing these bouts of depression, as my efforts start to be focused on that area.
I came across the Reb Chaim Vital in sharey kedusha (that I have seen quoted in several places) where he describes the source of all bad middos. He says they come from the makeup of the 4 yesosos (אש, מים, עפר, ורוח) well one of the main groups is atzvus (from the יסוד העפר) he says that laziness is a subcategory of this also.
So indeed I believe therein lays my problem - dealing with atzvus. Reb Chaim Vital says that the anecdote is being sameach bechelko and sameach to do Hashem's mitzvohs.
So I am dedicating the next stage of my life/recovery to working on simcha.
I think i will open another thread on that struggle as it applies to itself and continue to keep this thread for the thought that involve lust and the road to fighting P*** and M**** urges.

It's true that speaking to someone may not get to the root of the problem, BUT it may be enough to get you through a tough time. Then again, for many of us, the root of the problem is that we isolate because of poor self esteem (I think I quoted this from a sefer somewhere on my thread, but I can't find it right now). In which case, getting out of our comfort zone, and connecting is challenging our fear of rejection. (not sure if true in your case)

What are you going to do as far as simcha? I think the first thing you wrote about being somayach bechelko is important. I translate it as self-acceptance. I know that sharing my story with some people here helped me with that. I found that to be perhaps the most important part of my recovery.