Thanks Dov
accepting everything, awareness is THE key ..

Dov

thanks, you so clearly explained what I had in mind by saying that dressing up the torah’s mentchlickeit into rucniyus is a bubble need to be burst thanks, and you put it down that calling that 'avodas hashem' is running from ourselves

Dov


trying to explain my self, i’m sorry for using words doesn’t tell what i want, by writing ‘white knuckling’ i simply means that i will keep up trying to do my best technically and spiritually even i will never reach a ‘hechereh madraigah’ and ‘I know I will fail at doing it perfectly ’ and by using the term 'beinoni', i said to myself and need to be patient with myself hey you, you will never get your teenage dreams..
thank you

i dont agree with you. of the 8 levels that you can fall under the 3rd is already considered being an addict. although he hasnt exhibited certain addictive habits he still could have the underlying issue. and it is a mountain.
hunjy1 you should read the SA book

hunjy1 wrote:
Gevalt. I do not know, chaver, if you are referring to me in these questions at all, but if you are including me in the questions, then let me say this:

Please tell me when/if I ever said that you need SA meetings? Did I ever post that to anyone here on GYE? I don't think so. If I did, it was an arrogant moment of mine, indeed, snd I'd apologize. Please let me know if I implied it, too. Thanks.

And while we r at it, please tell me when/if I ever wrote anything like "once an addict always an addict" to anyone here on GYE? Never, I think. It's a complex topic that has some good application, but certainly not 'The Truth'. It's a whole discussion - too bad the 'we-are-sick-for-life' concept is so readily thrown around here...

Hope this didn't come off as critical - I am really trying to just clarify my own position here, and hope what I did write never implied those two ideas to you.

Thanks, chaver! And keep up the great work, all of us.

Dov wrote:


No you didn't direct me to an SA meeting. That wasn't exactly my point, sorry for misquoting.

I just meant to say that I understand the value in opening up... Just this forum has helped me tons. But I keep getting the message that the only way to undo my secret habits rooted in gayvoh and self-righteousness is to knock me clear off my horse. And the only way to do that (it sounds like) is to tell someone who I thought previously respected me for my other lifestyle and reveal to him/her my secret one.

Meaning the embarrassment of exposing myself will help me change.

I do believe that this would help me become more real. I'm just saying that if this is not the only way to reach my goals, then it may not be the best way.

I am going to offer my humble (and that is an understatement since you have Dov answering you) opinion on the matter.

hunjy1 wrote:


I do not look at it that way. First of all, I don't think it has to be anybody that knew you before at all!! The only one that wil get new information will be.....yourself!!

Which leads us to the second thing, there is no embarrasment, just simple truth!! We are constantly tricking ourselves, telling ourselves lies about who we are, and who we aren't. Opening up to anyone is a way of showing ourselves who we really are!!

It's not a scaring method, rarely did that work for me, and even when it did, the scare didn't last too long before I was back to P & M. The point is that in order for oursleves to grow, we need to know who we are!! Only then can we begin to really change.

Thanks for letting me share

hunjy1. It is evident that you are desperately trying to avoid telling someone. At the same time, you must feel deep down that it's the right thing to do, or you wouldn't spend so much time and energy thinking about it.

Am I right?

From my experience (and others here). It's scary to do beforehand, but it's a BIG relief afterwards. What do you have to lose?

gibbor120 wrote:


Yes you are right. I do feel it is right to tell someone. I have spoken already with a safe GYE member and that was helpful.

But you ask what I have to lose. If I were to tell someone who knows me, I could possibly lose their respect, or I could damage a good relationship...

Maybe I don't deserve that respect anyway, but before I go take that plunge I wanted to make sure it was the right move. so that's why I am spending so much time on this topic. I want real change, but I am treading carefully... Sometimes over-analyzing is foolish and sometimes being too hasty is foolish... call me crazy... so what?

That is what I like about the forum. I can learn a bit about someone before I decide to call them. If someone is on this forum, you will not lose their respect or damage a relationship. If anything, they will respect you more, and if they happen to know you (not so likely) you will be lucky to have a real friend to share with.

When I told my rav (sort of against my will) he told me and my wife how much he respects me.

Hatzlacha.

You are welcome to call me if you like. Just send me a PM.

I know how you feel. I went through the same dilemma. I'm happy that I told a few people and can call them to talk.

If I'd be a religious fanatic, I'd respond somthing silly like, "Well, shouldn't you care more about saving your relationship with Hashem, than about preserving a relationship with one who is 'just' a bosor v'dom (and that is already based on false information anyway)?"

But I am not one of those and realize that we all in fact do care much more about what people think of us than about what Hashem thinks of us - and He knows it! (He is very, very smart, you know.) That kind of response is just more familiar old twisted mussar schmooze...religious negative-trickery and self bashing. Been there, done that with myself enough, so I do not dare use that hammer on others any more, either...

So instead:

I am referring to asking a real recovering person, not stam to walk up to your chavrusa and tell him all your dirt, c"v, or to your rov, or whoever.

You speak the language of 'shame' and 'embarrassing'...that's too bad. But that is how you see things, still.

And as others here have pointed out, none of this 'opening up' stuff has anything to do with embarassing ourselves. Do you honestly think that embarrasing yourself would stop you, anyway? That you would eventually sneak around even the people you vomited all the dirty truth onto, too? Of course you would, I would, all of us would! And therfore that is not at all what we are talkign about here. Shaming ourselves does not work at all.

But being honest does.

Now, whom can you be honest to, without losing your same sense of worth and beauty? For myself, I share everything with my recovery friends and lose no honor in the process at all. For we are all the same, in a respect. No shame, no embarrassment.

Your shame has got to go.

R' Elimelech of Lizhensk wrote that, as you know, in the tzet'l kotton #13. "A trusted friend"..."and not to hold back anything due to shame". Was he talking about punishing ourselves by embarrassing ourselves? If that was it, then he'd have said to find a bimah to klop on!

Do you hear? It's OK, you can do this if you want to, and it is not brutalizing yourself.

Dov wrote:


Just to add another mareh makom (you can start using this one as well, Dov)

LeHavote Aish wrote:

I would suggest that anyone who struggles with the desire unsucccesfully and denies that he is an addict is at risk for becoming an addict. That's because we all rationalize many aspects of our behavior that really are beyond the pale of being rationalized, and rationalizing this desire can , as it did in my case, lead to a full fledged addiction.

Actually, if you sit down with a competent therapist, and start writing here Blashon Nikiyah , it can be a very cathartic process in helping you recover. I credit my therapist for letting me describe how I began with masturbation and porn years ago, and how my desire for both increased , replete with telling him what I saw, watched, read and printed over the years. Admissions and acknowledgments of whatyou actually did, are vital before one even thinks of concrete measures.

בידו אפקיד רוחיwrote in part:

"I think that for normals there really is a mehalech of avodah that doesn't require one to see himself as powerless, as Dov said. I don't much care for it but it seems to be valid for some people. I believe the tachlis is serving Hashem from a real sense of dependency on Him because that's the truth anyways. But until we are there, we can also serve Him from a place where we see ourselves as separate and hence rely on our "own" strength. Does that make sense to anyone?"

I think that this makes a lot of sense. When Yaakov Avinu prepared to meet Esau HaRasha, Rashi mentions that Yaakov davened and took positive steps that we would call Hishtadlus. I heard a prominent rav point out that becoming a Ben Torah , let alone aTalmid Chacham, requires both Tefilah and Hishtadlus in the form of Talmud Torah Lishmah B Ameilus UHasmada Rabah. One cannot succeed without both Tefilah and Hishtadlus.

Here is one way...join the call. Share your step 1. That is a great big start...