Day 5...still going strong

This thread has been joined by others and I hope we can all get chizuk from each other.

Usually when I don't do it...life in general seems to have less complications...less strife with wife...etc. Not the case with my mini streak...

Work has gotten a bit calmer so that's a positive.

I feel today that I just miss the excitement of it...YH trying to convince me whats the big deal? Trying to fight back with think how you will feel 10 seconds after its done...or if you pick up the phone and call ex...get into a situation that you know what the outcome will be. Is a positive thing that I can still think clearly...trying to imagine how I will feel after as opposed to just jumping in. Brings me back to a sefer I once read by R Chaim Lazzato...one of the devices of the YH...is to get you not to think.

Hope I can continue to stay strong...back of my mind is telling me only a matter of time.

For those on the other side...how did you break it...I have read other strings where people seem to click and just flip the switch...HOW.

This soul marches on....

trying2bgr8 wrote:
WELCOME! Writing here is a BIG step in the right direction. Opening up is very powerful! I hope this is the beginning of the beginning for you (that is - the beginning of a new life).

Nachshon wrote:


Sorry, no such thing. The most successful people here will tell you that they do not see themselves 'on the other side' at all. In fact, a key to their success is that they keep working on it every day, a day at a time. So actually, you are on equal footing as them, since you are also given the same opportunity to stay sober 'just for today'.

Hatzlacha

MT

Machshovo Tova wrote:


Ditto

Day 6...

Still hanging strong....almost slipped...feel like the YH..is puhing really hard..or is that me just wanting to belive that to help justify a fall?

Almot fell...pulled out of nose dive this morning...kept thinking how will I feel right after.

I accept now there is no easy fix...is both welcoming and scary that I have to fight this for the rest of my life. Seemed easier (fatasy) if there was some magic trick to wipe the slate clean.

Thanks again to all for the support...hope I can keep solidering on...

keep going we are all dovening for you.

Keep it up tzadik
ur posting helps us all
ur being strong makes us all strong

1- Please don't do it for us. Better be selfish and do it for yourself. Chayecho kodmin 100%.

2- And I know the great guys here don't mean it this way at all, but "Keep it up" sounds to me a little like, "Hold back for as long as you can!"

Too much pressure, for me.

And 3- you are not a tzaddik, by the way, and neither am I, nor are any of us here, really.

But you are a great, great guy, as are the majority of us here, for sure. You know, admitting you are a fairly good man, is often a lot harder than thinking you or I are 'tzaddikim'. Funny, no?

Nu. But we are the lucky ones! We are chronic masturbaters and porn users, fakers-in-public and hiders-in-the-bathroom - and yet here we are getting help! That's beautiful! We all b"H have emunah and some yir'as Shomayim - yet most of us have seen that sperm come out so many times and asked ourselves each and every time, "Gevalt! Why the heck did I do that again?!"

We have no real clue why we end up doing these stupid things, and spend years trying to figure it out...as though that would stop us...ha ha. It won't.

So we finally conclude that we are simply a bit meshugah and become ready to get help just to stop and stay stopped for today. It's kedai for today. Not tzaddikim, not making any promises to G-d for purity and kedusha for the rest of the month or life...and the Ribono shel Olam still sent us here to a place of opening up, of recovery and of help!

It's fantastic!! He is fantastic!

Just consider easing off on the pressure-cooker. You may not need it, to stay kosher today.

WOW Dov really well said...I know people only say Tzadik as a form of encouragement...I doubt anyone means it to the true sense of the word if they really thought about it.

Regarding Pressure Cooker...isn't that the constant state I am in to a degree? Aren't I just trying to hold out as long as possible before the next fall? There was a really good article an the NYT (I think Shabbat...uh-oh...just lost my Tzadik card...I read the NYT and even worse read it on Shabbat! )...talked about a young Israeli general...free thinker...side point of the article is that there is no winning the Arab (Hezbolah/Hamas) Israeli war...his job is to lengthen the time between wars.

I thought that was applicable here...can this really be beaten? Perhaps because I am depressed that there are no magic bullets nor unicorns out there to beat this quickly and it is a daily struggle...my perception is can I really wipe this from my life? I have been at it since 12 and my first GF? Plus I really enjoy it (during the lead up at least...as well as with other people I know). Perhaps I am supposed to lengthen the time between falls? In a way that removes the pressure cooker...but also sets up an excuse for when the fall comes....just thinking out loud.

Dov, other thoughts regarding Tzadik comments...its funny that I do consider myself a good person....numerous boards of tzadaka organizations...school boards...learn/teach Torah...etc...how do I rationalize the horrible things I do (did?) with the perception in the community...my wife and family see??? I read your Captain Kirk example...and I think so true....for me I use my English name and have almost created this other being that is outside of the real me...its okay for Andrew to do those things...not Nachshon (neither my real names). I can imagine when those words are forced to collide will be painful....

Not sure anyone is a Sienfeld fan...but kind of like Relationship George and Fun George...

I do want to thank all of you for lending an ear and your thoughts as I finally confront this demon....Day 7...weakening a bit...but trying to fight on...thanks for the encouragement even if I am not really a Tzadik.....

The "pressure cooker model" and "just holding out as long as possible before the next fall" is really not fun. It means we are in a constant state of tension.

People have learned to release the tension so it does not build, and how to release it in a healthy way when it does build. It makes life a lot more pleasant.

The "pressure cooker" model almost guarantees that the "wars" will get closer and closer until there is just one big war, and the winner is not us .

People who have been addicted for decades, now have years of sobriety. They finally found AND USED the right tools. That is NOT POSSIBLE with the "pressure cooker" model.

You are right, there is no magic bullet, unicorn or leprechaun to take it away. There is a middle ground though between gone for good so I can lust like a gentleman, to white knuckling it for the rest of my life. It is hard to explain, especially for me, as I am just starting to learn where this middle place is. Basically it is about acceptance, vigilance, and dependence on Hashem.

Accepting that I have a serious problem and that I are not able to control myself, and will never be able to take that drink. I saw an AA youtube video that put it like this. I can take that first drink, and I don't know what will happen after that. It may be just one, or I may end up drunk for the next week. Same for me, I can start to lust, and maybe I will enjoy a cheap thrill, or maybe I will end up at the computer masturbating.

Vigilance then that I have to stay away from that first drink. Keep myself out of situations where I need to medicate with lust. Keep myself out of situations where the lusting is unavoidable.

Finally, dependence on Hashem, realizing that I have failed in every attempt to get clean. Only when I realized that the task is too much for me alone and only with the help of Hashem can I hope to have any kind of success.

I am speaking only for myself of course.
Eli

Nachshon wrote:


(Why don't you just use your real first name here, then? I do. I mean, I understand if it is Chuna-Feitle...that'd blow your anonymity. But if it's semi-average, what are u waiting for?

So much for the pushing.)

So, you did a great job clarifying that the biggest problem here is not the outer struggle of 'fighting the sin or desires that come to me', but rather the inner struggle: you still want to have porn fantasy, and the sex that comes with it, and are not ready to give it up yet. It's sweet, why give it up? There is nothing wrong with admitting that you have not had enough yet! I understand completely. Hey, I know the porn and erotica is all sweet - I am a addict. But I happen to have had enough.

But there is a magic bullet, of sorts. It is surrender. Giving it up, rather than beating anything.

Asking G-d to 'take it away so that I will not have to give it up' does not work. As long as we percieve ourselves to be martyrs, losing something by not having it - we just do not succeed at getting clean.

Some have had enough with 'just' porn and masturbation and see they can't handle it. Some need to have lots more experimentation before they figure out that they can't really handle lust-pursuit. And boy, does it hurt either way! I doubt it hurts for the divorced guy with gonorrhea from hookers to give it all up, any more than it hurts for the nerdy yeshivah guy who thinks he is still 'respectable' cuz he just masturbates himself in the toilet at lunch. I bet they both feel the exact same pain - giving lusting up feels like dying.

It's impossible.

That's why it's called a Miracle when we do it, even when we do it for one day at a time.

But it is categorically and completely different than holding out breath for just one more day. It does not build up and get harder with every passing day. If the surrender is more complete, then it's easier. If it is only partial, then it feels a lot worse.

That's all there is to it.

But we cannot do it alone. We need to do it openly, with other real people who understand cuz they are doing it, too. Otherwise it is usually just a self-delusion. And we all have enough experience with the romantic religious struggle against the big, bad yetzer hora, no?

Hey. Thanks for opening up with us here, man. Does any of this make sense to you?

- Dov

Dov thanks again for such a concise and thought provoking response. You articulate things with a sense of truth that I/we may think but you have the ability to state matter of factly. Gibbor and MJB thanks to you as well for your insight.

A great question...have I had enough? At times the answer is a resounding YES...that's usually the moment right after I connected with an old friend...or right after the semen flows. I get the same self loathing that I am sure everyone else does...why am I doing this? It makes no sense...we also all know until a second before climax...things felt so right and amazing and exciting...its just afterwards that the switch gets flipped and there is the feelings of disappointment in myself.

Have I had enough...keep going back to that question....for me there have been many peaks and valleys....when I get started down the path it leads to other behaviors that are wrong/worse...I continue down that path until I look around and say how could I have met that person and did that (and no not a hooker...never saw the excitement in having to pay for it...for me was always the challenge...and no never all the way...perhaps that's how I can continue to have this image that I am not a bad guy!)....when I hit that point I usually jump off the mountain into the valley (not sure which is the peak and which is the valley but I think you get my point)...going cold turkey until the cycle begins again. Perhaps this is no different then the alcoholic that takes the first drink that leads to the binge....

I am on Day 8...may not sound like much but its something...and mostly it has gotten easier each day. I use the thoughts of how will I feel 5 seconds after if I start/continue down this path to win the latest rounds...with the big bad YH or myself as you so eloquently stated.

I am not sure I fully understand what you mean by surrender...many have said turn to hashem... surrender to hashem...someone wrote me a really long email (I appreciate the time and effort)....that talked about how each time I fail and get back up that's sweet music to hashem...not sure I like the sound of that...am I a gerbil and god manipulates in his big maze for his enjoyment? Does god really get enjoyment from that?

I am starting to blab...so will end here....

Day 9 is just around the corner...and I am in this fight for real.

With much appreciation to all,

Nachshon

Dov...I guess putting my name out there makes this even more real...stepping out of the shadows is daunting enough...my name out will make my 2 worlds combine and that really scares the H*** out of me. Will shatter my image of myself!

Bad guess with Chunie Feitel

can't wait for Dov to answer what "surrender" means to him.

Nachshon wrote:


1- If the only real motivation for quitting that you have is the rotten way you feel afterward, then I may have little to share that will be of real value, it seems. 'Having enough' only right after masturbating ourselves is not 'having enough', at all. It's nothing but regret. Wanting to feel better is just another selfish motive.

So before unzipping the pants the only serious motive here is to feel better -- and right after ejaculating, the only serious motive here is veiter just to feel better. Sorry, but there is really no difference at all between them, for they are all equally about comfort and nothing else. Sure, the frum party line might say there is a tremendous difference, namely that before doing it our motive is to enjoy sinning, and after the deed is done our motive is kinda like a mitzvah (Teshuvah). But often that's nothing but a religious-sounding copout, and we know it.

Sure Hashem loves the masturbater, as He loves and cares for everyone! But the idea of completely eliminating any sadness from the masturbater by suggesting that 'Hashem loves when you fall and get right up afterward without letting yourself feel the pain' - well, that is just playing into the hands of same exact game as the masturbation. The prime directive that is: 'I must feel good at all costs and under all circumstances!'

Yeah, there is some truth to it, and yeah, it might help some people some of the time. But it is being applied wrongly there, I think. The non-addict needs to be allowed to feel the pain, as he has the power to stop and needs to be motivated to stop. There is a reason that it hurts! G-d gave us that guilt for a reason and it needs to be harnessed, not Pollyanna'd away with spiritualistic 'it's-all-good' nahrishkeit. Feeling the living hell of my acting out was a great, great help to me. As it says in Mishlei, "Hashem is good and just, for He throws the sinner down hard - thus getting him onto the right path." Rav Twerski spent a lot of time trying to teach the difference betwen the healthy emotion we call guilt - and the destructive feeling we call shame.

And on the other side, regarding the true addict , no one needs to accept that Hashem loves him even though he sins, more than he (or she) needs to. But trying to convince him that Hashem loves or enjoys his struggle can be so very damaging! It can chas veSholom encourage him to keep trying and fighting a fight that he cannot win. Addicts like me are losers, when it comes to lust. Our only option is to surrender our right to control or use fantasy.

Talk about rambling...I went overtime here! But I wanted to explain that "having had enough" really means something. It means that my relationship to the opportunity - not just to the orgasms - is changed. Regretting sperm on the floor as it's happenning, is nothing even remotely like 'having enough'. Something's gotta change in me to want better for myself. AA's call it 'Enlightened Self-interest".

2- It's OK, man. If u do not feel OK with using your real first name here or feel it might actually jeopardize your security, please do not get pushed into doing it!! But then find someone real in your life - some one safe - with whom you can open up about all the details of your lusting and acting out habitus without fear or shame. Make the two yous into one, man.

3- You are a rare individual, chaver. So stuck into this cycle thing - yet working and getting help to stay clean one day at a time at all costs. Rare indeed, and very lucky.